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Op Ed

Thanks Joker961.

Roger Ebert's Journal - Video games can never be art.
Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.

Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.

Gamasutra - A Critical Retort to Roger Ebert on Games as Art.
Yes Mister Ebert, you cannot win a film. But why would it be logical to follow by saying that since a film cannot be won you can only experience it, implying that you can only win and not experience a videogame? Mister Ebert, a videogame allows both, by virtue of its existence as a thing to be played. You cannot win without first experiencing, or else you have not been playing, and if you have not been playing then, well, you have just been watching.

Platform Nation - Ebert Is Right… For Now.
Right now, videogames can be projected to move into a state where they will mirror films creatively and financially. You’ll start to see a trend of fewer games coming out, fewer publishers taking risks, large game budgets. The independent studies will not get their say, they will be weeded out. Call of Duty, Halo, Gears; they could be just the fewer games we get. Casual gaming can’t save us. Lets guess around 100 games come out every year, and around 40 mainstream films come out every year. The number of games is going to just go downhill given the trend, and the independent studio will be at risk of failing.

Attack of the Fanboy - Does anyone really care about 3-D?
There are two types of product innovation – one that takes something that already exists and improves it, and the that other invents a technology and tries to find uses for it. James Cameron spent ten years developing a camera that could create the film he had wanted to make for years. Samsung and LG developed 3-D televisions because people seemed to like Avatar. Hmm.

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46 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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26. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 23:24 space captain
 
isnt it funny how he's this big critic, and then he gets throat cancer? they cut his lower jaw off and everything

Rotfl
 
Go forth, and kill!
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25. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 22:49 NKD
 
Ebert needs a major dose of shut-the-fuck-up as of late. Wonder what his deal is? Maybe he feels the clock ticking down and just wants to spew as much bullshit as possible before he kicks the bucket.  
Avatar 43041
 
If you don't like where gaming is heading, stop giving your money to the people who are taking it in that direction.
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24. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 22:22 Icewind
 
kxmode wrote on Apr 18, 2010, 21:42:
@space captain

I have you muted but I wondered what you said. I thought perhaps you might have something interesting to add to the conversation. Yup, as I suspected. You BRING nothing! I like when people troll but it has to be witty or funny. Your comment history is rife with banal, obscene trolling of the worst kind. You may reply but I won't see your comment.

That's cute.
 
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23. Re: enjoy yourselves Apr 18, 2010, 22:11 space captain
 
fnord  
Go forth, and kill!
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22. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:42 Kxmode
 
@space captain

I have you muted but I wondered what you said. I thought perhaps you might have something interesting to add to the conversation. Yup, as I suspected. You BRING nothing! I like when people troll but it has to be witty or funny. Your comment history is rife with banal, obscene trolling of the worst kind. You may reply but I won't see your comment.
 
Avatar 18786
 
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21. Re: shit by a tree, fuckin live off the land Apr 18, 2010, 21:29 space captain
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Apr 18, 2010, 21:18:
Never trust people that abide to the celibacy. ^^ anyone
fixed
 
Go forth, and kill!
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20. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:18 eRe4s3r
 
Never trust people that abide to the celibacy. ^^  
Avatar 54727
 
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19. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:18 Donkey_Punch
 
Film is only an art form because it takes a lot of talent to raise above the technology. When you have a lot of people working on a project it is very difficult to keep control. It is very easy for the technology and the process to kill a great idea.

Video games are the same.
 
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18. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:16 Cutter
 
So I guess developers don't employ artists who do concept and real-time art? Look, if some guy taking a dump on something can be put on display in a museum and called art a fucking video-game at least deserves that much. This why the whole art arguement is bogus to begin with and I've always considered myself of the "I don't know if it's art, but I know what I like" school, and that's all that's importantant in the end anyway.

 
Avatar 25394
 
James Woods: Oh that's fun. That sounds like you had a fun time. Where would I fit in with the fun time, huh? Where does James Woods fit into the fun?
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17. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:13 space captain
 
When did Roger Ebert become the Pope of what is art and what isn't?
probably when he decided to turn a blind eye to the rampant pedophilia committed by the people that work for him
 
Go forth, and kill!
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16. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:10 Acleacius
 
Readers would say the film isn't a work of art, and I rightly agree with them.....A reasonable person could agree with that. But he doesn't reason that way.
All good points, I certainly don't consider Harry Potter high art. I do believe it's art or artistic at some mediocre level, except of course for Emma Watson who is defiantly High Art.

Surely if someone made a exact replica of Citizen Kane in game form(doesn't have to be fun), where you acted out each scene and conclusion it would be art. It's as if Ebert takes away the actors talent as artists, who are playing out the game of the movie, by acting out the script.

His brain can't make the connection between seeing/imagining art and being part of the art or evolutionary art.
 
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.That is easy.All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.It works the same way in any country.
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15. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:05 Surf
 
When did Roger Ebert become the Pope of what is art and what isn't?  
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14. Re: artifice, artificial Apr 18, 2010, 21:04 space captain
 
as usual, people confuse their personally biased perspective with objective fact

if you refuse to look at the workings of your own mind, then you become a tool of the external forces which have created it, like language and symbols and the internal extrapolation of instinctual urges like survival, territorial acquisition, hierarchical progression, mass procreation, and so forth

Main Entry: art
Function: noun

1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts b archaic : learning, scholarship
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter

it would seem Ebert wants to redefine the word to his own personal usage and then also demand that everyone agrees with his definition only, and no other definitions shall be admitted as possible whatsoever

everyone loves a critic
 
Go forth, and kill!
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13. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 21:04 Blackhawk
 
A big part of game design is specifically about arranging things to appeal to the senses and emotions. Artists spend hundreds of hours arranging colors and patterns into textures to either recreate a natural object or to create a subjective impression of one. Modelers - 3d sculptors - then take those textures and spend hundreds more hours to create renditions of objects that create a visual and emotional appeal. Level designers take these things and arrange them, not just to create a mechanical experience, but to create a visual effect, an emotional 'wow' moment. Think about the tram ride into Half-Life, or walking through the Shire in LotRO. Think about certain levels in the Thief series. They use space, color, contrast, depth, perspective to create emotional responses in the viewer. How is that so different than film or two dimensional static art?

Now, on top of that, you've got musicians. Maybe they're not Mozart or Vivaldi, but neither are most of the other musicians today who are collectively called 'artists'. You've got writers telling stories through both observed events and dialogue and through experiences they put the viewer through himself. Writing is certainly an art form.

Then you have a producer who takes all of these disparate elements, any one of which you'd have to be one hell of an egotist to deny being art, and combines them - again - to create yet another level of sensory and emotional impact.

Are they Citizen Kane, Handel's Messiah, or Starry Night? Maybe not. Neither are most of the films made today, and yet I don't see Ebert denying that because they're not on par with the greatest works of all time that they aren't deserving of the respect of being seen as 'art'.

Saying that a game can't be art is a slap in the face of hundreds of skilled, professional artists. Graphic artists, sculptors, writers, musicians, composers, producers, foley artists, actors, and more.
 
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12. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 20:19 Yosemite Sam
 
I think Mr Ebert should pull out the old websters dictionary and look up art.

EDIT, heh not only can a game be an art form but there can be art in a game and even art in the playing of a game.

EDIT2 game design could be considered an art form

This comment was edited on Apr 18, 2010, 20:27.
 
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CIV4 MOD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326525
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11. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 20:12 Kxmode
 
Acleacius wrote on Apr 18, 2010, 20:00:
Just using this as an example never play Harry Potter games. The whole premise is absurdest, he reviews a movie called Harry Potter calling it art, regardless of his score. Then calls a game based on the same movie story, actors, sound, setting and says it's not art.

Readers would say the film isn't a work of art, and I rightly agree with them.

As an objective reviewer of film I think Ebert should have ended his article by saying not everything is art, but there is art in all forms of entertainment. In other words some films are art, some books are art, some music is art, and even some video games are art. A reasonable person could agree with that. But he doesn't reason that way.
 
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10. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 20:00 Acleacius
 
Just using this as an example never play Harry Potter games. The whole premise is absurdest, he reviews a movie called Harry Potter calling it art, regardless of his score. Then calls a game based on the same movie story, actors, sound, setting and says it's not art.

Why cause you play Harry plus gang and you can WIN?

I even like Ebert, in this subject it's pure arrogant, stupidity and hypocrisy for him to state these derisions.

What about Psychonauts that was art from every level, afaik.

 
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.That is easy.All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.It works the same way in any country.
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9. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 19:47 creatorswhim
 
As far as I can tell, the argument boils down to this: Roger Ebert says that an activity that consists of making a series of choices cannot be art, and all the people decrying his opinion say that an activity that produces a variety of results for different choices can be considered art.

Is that right?
 
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8. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 19:45 StingingVelvet
 
I think comparing video games to chess proves he has no idea what he is talking about.  
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7. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2010, 19:44 Kxmode
 
derelict koan wrote on Apr 18, 2010, 19:31:
kxmode wrote on Apr 18, 2010, 19:30:
I wonder if Ebert has even seen Braid, Zeno Clash or Machinarium?

Yes. Braid is used as an example in the article.

The only thing I will say about Ebert is that he doesn't get video games because he is not gamer. "Obviously, I'm hopelessly handicapped because of my love of cinema." Yes, I know. He doesn't actually come out and say 'I am not a gamer'. He doesn't strike me as a gamer because most gamers GET IT with video gamers.

I think Ebert read articles about the profitability of video games compared to films (with the noticeable exception of Avatar). Studios are catching on to this. He fears they may pursue video games and films less. His article sounds like a passive-aggressive, hatchet job against video games to save his beloved cinema. Good luck with that Ebert. You are not going to turn the tide of video games and video gamers.

This comment was edited on Apr 18, 2010, 19:58.
 
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