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28 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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28. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 14, 2010, 05:18 Jerykk
 
Someone told Dierker that Sean was a British spy.

Are you sure about that? I thought Dierker just assumed that Sean was a spy, given that he was constantly a thorn in his side.

Except you don't need to go on dozens or hundreds of missions to get that information.

Naturally. But this is a standard videogame contrivance. In Mercenaries, you shouldn't need to work for the various factions. You're a one man (or woman) army. Logically, you should be able to go straight to the guy who screwed you and kill him because you cam easily kill countless soldiers and destroy everything in your path. But the game doesn't let you because that would make for a pretty short and anticlimactic game. If you're going to question videogame logic, you can't just limit your criticism to Saboteur.

But in this case the cause of fighting the Nazi oppression and occupation is inherently good even if the individuals who comprise the cause aren't completely so because the Nazis are evil.

I disagree. Fighting against the Nazis isn't inherently good because no act is inherently good. It depends entirely on what your motivations are. In Saboteur, the various people you work for clearly don't have altruistic or noble motivations and as such, their fight against the Nazis isn't inherently good.

The differences need not be dramatic so they would be doable within the development timeframe and budget.

Except it would be a waste of time. Saboteur is focused on one character and as a result, that character (and the story) is far better developed than anything in Mercenaries 2. Sure, they could add a bunch of superficial playable characters to Saboteur but then you'd lose the character development and story focus.

And, the faults are simply design decisions not technical limitations or impracticalities. The story is a step backwards, vehicular combat is dimished with no air or water vehicles, there's no multiplayer modes, and there less diversity in the factions.

They are different games. It wouldn't make any sense for Sean to be flying fighter planes around and would seriously break the style of gameplay that Pandemic was going for. In Mercenaries, you are a one man army. In Saboteur, you are a saboteur. Stealth and relative subtlety is the focus. And I don't think the story is a step backwards. Is it as open-ended as in Mercs? No, but it has a lot more focus and character development.

The missions are already pretty varied and fit well with the story.

But they could be so much better. Imagine if every mission were as well developed as the kind of missions you see in more linear games.

Mercenaries 2's story is serious and realistic. Dictators, coups, guerillas, mercenaries, and exploitative foreign corporations and governments are all par for the course in Venezuela and South America.

The themes may be serious but the style in which they are conveyed is not. The premise of the game is you wanting vengeance because some guy didn't pay you and shot you in the ass and nothing in the game is treated with much gravity. Just Cause 2 deals with essentially the same themes as Mercs 2 but again, the story itself and the way it is conveyed is anything but serious.

Being able to steal a disguise is the only deficiency in that area. The game already has stealth if you want to play that way.

Well, no, compared to games like Hitman, Thief and Splinter Cell, the stealth in Mercs 2 is an utter joke. Wasted opportunity.

The main difference is that in Merc 2 armed vehicles are more plentiful in the game, so they can be used more often. I never meleed in Merc 2 unless I was out of ammo because the explosive weapons like RPG's and the grenade launcher are so fun and effective.

That's the big differences between the two games. Merc 2 is much more of an over-the-top, blow-everything-up action game. Saboteur is much more subtle. Yeah, you blow stuff up but it usually requires sneaking around and sabotaging equipment rather than plowing a tank through a wall. Different games, different approaches to blowing stuff up.

Its story is more simplified from a morality standpoint, stereotypical, and incongrous.

I wouldn't say that the morality is simplified, since the protagonist is primarily motivated by revenge and the members of the Resistance aren't exactly portrayed as saints. If this were Medal of Honor or Call of Duty, then your claim would be valid because there is no moral ambiguity whatsoever in those games.

There's fewer factions, only one enemy, and no opportunity for betrayal or collaboration.

I'm not sure how many factions you could have in a WW2 setting. There were basically two sides.

You can only play as one character in the game even though the game contains several suitable protagonists.

The benefit of focusing on one character is that he is much more developed and the story revolves completely around on him and his backstory.

Vehicular combat is dimished, and there's no air or water combat.

You are not supposed to be a one man army. If you could fly around in a fighter plane, that would completely negate the stealth and platforming elements since flying would be the most efficient way to travel and destroy stuff. Water combat would be pretty useless, as the game doesn't take place on a tropical island and there's not enough water to justify water combat.

There's no co-op or other multiplayer modes.

I don't see how that's a negative. Not all games need multiplayer and Saboteur is a story-driven game with a heavy focus on Sean. Never did I feel that the game would have benefit from multiplayer. Conversely, Mercs is far less story-driven and the characters are shallow and completely interchangeable so it is well suited to multiplayer.

From everything you've said, it sounds like you wanted Mercs 3. Unfortunately, Saboteur was never meant to be Mercs 3. It's a different game with a different focus and a different style of gameplay. That doesn't make it worse than Mercs 2 because it's not supposed to be compared. It's equivalent to saying that Dragon Age sucks because it's not like Oblivion or vice versa.

This comment was edited on Apr 14, 2010, 05:27.
 
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27. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 12, 2010, 04:03 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 12, 2010, 00:00:
That's only if they actually knew about it.
Someone told Dierker that Sean was a British spy. It could have been easily worked into the plot that the information came down the chain of command.

If you're trying to find a high-level German agent who doesn't want to be found, you need information and the Resistance can be provide this.
Except you don't need to go on dozens or hundreds of missions to get that information.

Or it just makes them the lesser evil. Nazis are the antagonist, the Resistance is the protagonist. The protagonist is not inherently "good," though.
But in this case the cause of fighting the Nazi oppression and occupation is inherently good even if the individuals who comprise the cause aren't completely so because the Nazis are evil. So, it's still a good versus evil morality play.

The differences would be so minor as to not be worth implementing.
The differences that are already implemented are worth it. I was surprised that some of the AI's lines changed when I changed characters. I just wish that the differences amongst the characters were more than superficial and affected gameplay or story or both. Subtle changes in these would be fine. The differences need not be dramatic so they would be doable within the development timeframe and budget.

One could say that about any game.
No, some games aren't such a wasted opportunity. In The Saboteur Pandemic and EA had the opportunity to make something which drastically improved upon Mercenaries 2, but they didn't. And, the faults are simply design decisions not technical limitations or impracticalities. The story is a step backwards, vehicular combat is dimished with no air or water vehicles, there's no multiplayer modes, and there less diversity in the factions. The only real improvements over Merc 2 are the addition to disguise mode (stealing a uniform) and the addition of the platforming movement.

Mercs 2...would also benefit from more unique and thoughtful missions.
The missions are already pretty varied and fit well with the story. Even freelancing in the game makes sense within the overall plot.

I think a more serious storyline would have been good.
Mercenaries 2's story is serious and realistic. Dictators, coups, guerillas, mercenaries, and exploitative foreign corporations and governments are all par for the course in Venezuela and South America. The game's storyline isn't ripped from news headlines, but it's not far from it.

Better stealth elements would have been nice too.
Being able to steal a disguise is the only deficiency in that area. The game already has stealth if you want to play that way.

And better AI. And better combat (where melee isn't the most effective attack).
The combat and AI are virtually identical to what is in The Saboteur. The main difference is that in Merc 2 armed vehicles are more plentiful in the game, so they can be used more often. I never meleed in Merc 2 unless I was out of ammo because the explosive weapons like RPG's and the grenade launcher are so fun and effective.

Could Saboteur have been better? Sure. But what it ended up being was still better than Mercs 2.
No, The Saboteur isn't a better game overall for the many reasons I cited above and below. But since you seem to have a short memory, here's a recap:

Its story is more simplified from a morality standpoint, stereotypical, and incongrous.

There's fewer factions, only one enemy, and no opportunity for betrayal or collaboration.

You can only play as one character in the game even though the game contains several suitable protagonists.

Vehicular combat is dimished, and there's no air or water combat.

There's no co-op or other multiplayer modes.

This comment was edited on Apr 12, 2010, 14:48.
 
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26. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 12, 2010, 00:00 Jerykk
 
I think that Dierker's superiors would have jumped at the chance to have a British double-agent working for them.

That's only if they actually knew about it. Given Dierker's personality, it's not unreasonable to assume that he would rather kill Sean than tell his superiors about him and potentially spare his life.

Risking his life going on dozens or hundreds of missions before he gets that chance makes no sense and is counterproductive.

It makes sense to me. Like you said, Sean is just one man. Conversely, the Resistance is many men (and women), some of whom are spies embedded with the Germans. If you're trying to find a high-level German agent who doesn't want to be found, you need information and the Resistance can be provide this. Since Sean doesn't speak German, trying to be a spy himself wouldn't really work out too well.

No, but they all have a common enemy which is evil. That is what makes them the "good guys."

Or it just makes them the lesser evil. Nazis are the antagonist, the Resistance is the protagonist. The protagonist is not inherently "good," though.

The dialog differences including from the enemy AI in fighting add some variety along with the obvious visual differences.

The differences would be so minor as to not be worth implementing. I agree that being able to play as multiple meaningfully unique and well-developed characters would be great but that's a lot of work and simply not feasible unless you have a very large budget and long dev cycle.

The Saboteur is not a bad game, but it is a wasted opportunity for a better game.

One could say that about any game. No game is perfect. Mercs 2 would be much better if the three characters were completely unique and had their own unique missions and storyline. It would also benefit from more unique and thoughtful missions. I think a more serious storyline would have been good. Better stealth elements would have been nice too. And better AI. And better combat (where melee isn't the most effective attack).

Could Saboteur have been better? Sure. But what it ended up being was still better than Mercs 2.
 
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25. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 11, 2010, 15:07 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 11, 2010, 03:56:
I'm not sure how well that would have worked. If Sean had lied and told Dierker that he was a British agent, do you think Dierker would have offered him a chance to work for the Nazis instead? Especially when he clearly does not like nor trust Sean (and Sean just destroyed his race car)
I think that Dierker's superiors would have jumped at the chance to have a British double-agent working for them. The personal tension between Dierker and Sean in supposedly working together would have added greatly to the story and made it much more plausible. Sean could have gone on some missions for the Germans to prove his loyalty before they would accept him as an agent.

But in a more realistic setting, he definitely would need all the help he could get and the resistance would provide that help.
Sean is just looking to kill one man. Risking his life going on dozens or hundreds of missions before he gets that chance makes no sense and is counterproductive. And, that's the problem with the plot in a nutshell. Putting an Irishman in the French Resistance makes no sense unless you go for the revenge angle. And, even if you present it as a quest for revenge, it still doesn't make any real sense. It's just a bad plot gimmick to find a more sympathetic protagonist for Americans consumers than a Frenchman.

Just because you agree to work with someone doesn't make them "good."
No, but they all have a common enemy which is evil. That is what makes them the "good guys." The fact that none of these factions ever turns on you in the game nor you on them reinforces this fact. The game would have been much better with opportunities for betrayal and collaboration by anyone especially your character.

As for playing as multiple characters, I don't really see the point. The three characters you can play in Mercs 2 are only superficially different.
The dialog differences including from the enemy AI in fighting add some variety along with the obvious visual differences. Sure, I'd like to see these variations expanded, but at least it is something.

It seems like your only real gripe with Saboteur is that you don't get to align yourself with the Nazis. In every other respect, Saboteur is a better game than Mercs 2.
The Saboteur is not a better game. It's not quite as good. My major gripe is that The Saboteur is too sterotypical and limited because Pandemic and EA decided to play it safe. I'd like to be able to play as more than one character, and I'd like to have opportunities for betrayal and collaboration. The other major thing I miss from Merc 2 is the co-op multiplayer. If there ever was a game that would benefit from having co-op play it would be one like this one where you have a small band of resistance fighters taking on a large military force.

The Saboteur is not a bad game, but it is a wasted opportunity for a better game.

This comment was edited on Apr 11, 2010, 15:16.
 
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24. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 11, 2010, 03:56 Jerykk
 
He didn't agree in return for anything.

Not explicitly, no. But it's pretty obvious that's his motivation and the Resistance reveals that they're aware of this motivation through the course of the game.

It would have been more realistic for Sean to have sought out Germans directly and offered his services and doublecrossed them later to kill Dierker.

I'm not sure how well that would have worked. If Sean had lied and told Dierker that he was a British agent, do you think Dierker would have offered him a chance to work for the Nazis instead? Especially when he clearly does not like nor trust Sean (and Sean just destroyed his race car)?

If Sean is only out for revenge, he doesn't need the French Resistance.

Technically, Sean doesn't need the resistance because he's a one man army who shoots down zeppelins and blows up tanks. But in a more realistic setting, he definitely would need all the help he could get and the resistance would provide that help.

It is simply worse for their business being under Germany's thumb than it is under the government of their own countrymen, whom they know and can more easily bribe, deceive, or sway. Plus, the Nazi's wouldn't trust the French dealers to supply them with weapons.

I wasn't just referring to the weapon dealers, I was referring to the Resistance, the British and the various sub-factions you work for over the course of the game. No one is truly "good" because they all have ulterior, less noble motivations which is why I disagree with your simple good/evil assessment. Just because you agree to work with someone doesn't make them "good."

Allowing Nazi collaboration and the ability to play as more than one character would have greatly enhanced both the gameplay and the narrative.

I agree. However, being able to work for the Nazis is controversial subject, one that most publishers would rather not touch. As for playing as multiple characters, I don't really see the point. The three characters you can play in Mercs 2 are only superficially different. Hell, they are completely interchangeable in the intro cinematic. Sean is a much more developed character and the story is much more personal.

It seems like your only real gripe with Saboteur is that you don't get to align yourself with the Nazis. In every other respect, Saboteur is a better game than Mercs 2.
 
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23. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 10, 2010, 22:04 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 10, 2010, 19:14:
Exactly. If he was a generic, patriotic protagonist, he would have sought out the resistance. When they asked him to help, he agreed in return for their assistance in finding and killing Dierker.
No, he didn't. He didn't agree in return for anything. He just went along after being goaded by the Frenchman. Dierker isn't even mentioned when Sean agrees to join the resistance in the opening of the game. The whole thing with Dierker is just some tacked-on nonsense to give the plot somewhere to go after the initial missions of the game start to get stale.

Did the Germans have many Irish spies during WW2?
I don't know. I am sure the Germans had undercover agents who were native to the countries on which they were spying. But, that is what would have made this game interesting: the unexpected.

While I agree that it would have been cool to be able to work for the Nazis, it seems much more realistic and probable that Sean would work with the Resistance.
No, it just makes the plot more predictable, and it seems more like a forced explanation of why an Irishman would be working with the French Resistance. It would have been more realistic for Sean to have sought out Germans directly and offered his services and doublecrossed them later to kill Dierker.

Ireland was officially neutral during WW2 and Germany never bombed or invaded it.
Yes, Ireland was officially neutral, but "In the course of the war an estimated 70,000 citizens of neutral Ireland served as volunteers in the British Armed Forces (and another estimated 50,000 from Northern Ireland, and this figure does not include Irish people who were resident in Britain before the war." Ireland also interned the German pilots who were shotdown or crashed in Ireland while they were attacking Britain during the war. So, it is certainly not a stretch to believe that Sean would have fought the Nazis for the British in some capacity. The countries are neighbors were closely aligned. Dierker already thought that Sean was working for the British so it would have made more sense for him to play up that angle even if it wasn't true.

One could argue that Sean feels partially responsible for his friend's death which is why he's working with the resistance.
I agree with the former but not the latter. If Sean is only out for revenge, he doesn't need the French Resistance. In joining them he has a much better chance of dying while fighting for them before he can take his revenge.

Except you're missing the most important question: why are they fighting against the Nazis?
Actually that question is not important at all because the answer is obvious. There's no great mystery there. It is simply worse for their business being under Germany's thumb than it is under the government of their own countrymen, whom they know and can more easily bribe, deceive, or sway. Plus, the Nazi's wouldn't trust the French dealers to supply them with weapons.

No, you can't align yourselves with the Nazis. However, that doesn't mean that the people you can align yourself with are "good."
They are certainly good in comparison to the Nazis which is my point, and that's why you never fight against them in the game. In Mercenaries 2 at least you can steal from and double-cross the people you are working with.

The fundamental gameplay in Mercenaries, Saboteur, GTA, Scarface, Just Cause, etc, all feels pretty much the same.
True, but with these two games that feel is even closer since the vehicle handling, AI behavior, aiming, and basic movement are virtually identical.

While I don't greatly dislike The Saboteur, I think it is a wasted opportunity from a plot and character perspective because Pandemic and EA played it too safe. Allowing Nazi collaboration and the ability to play as more than one character would have greatly enhanced both the gameplay and the narrative.

This comment was edited on Apr 10, 2010, 22:22.
 
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22. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 10, 2010, 19:14 Jerykk
 
For me sniping from the roofs was fun for awhile, but it got old because it made the game too easy because you could simply hide up on the roof.

This is countered by zeppelins and fighter planes as your heat levels rise.

But that doesn't make any sense because Sean didn't seek out the Resistance. It recruited him.

Exactly. If he was a generic, patriotic protagonist, he would have sought out the resistance. When they asked him to help, he agreed in return for their assistance in finding and killing Dierker.

And, if he is just looking for Dierker, befriending some German soldiers or collaborating with the Germans as a spy would be alot more effective than consorting with their enemies (which is what got him and his friend into trouble in the first place.

Did the Germans have many Irish spies during WW2? While I agree that it would have been cool to be able to work for the Nazis, it seems much more realistic and probable that Sean would work with the Resistance.

And that's why he's not a believable character. The Nazis have invaded Europe and are bombing his homeland in preparation for an invasion. That's not something to be so cavalier about. Personal revenge would take a back seat to that especially in this case because it's Sean's own damn fault that his friend was shot because he chose to be a smartass to Dierker rather than cooperate.

I can't agree with you there. Ireland was officially neutral during WW2 and Germany never bombed or invaded it. Even if it were, not everyone cares about their country above all else. Conversely, most people do care when their best friend is murdered. One could argue that Sean feels partially responsible for his friend's death which is why he's working with the resistance.

Yes, some of the characters' motives aren't totally pure such as the weapons dealers, but they are still contributing to the overall fight against the Nazis.

Except you're missing the most important question: why are they fighting against the Nazis? Are they doing it to regain freedom and liberty for all? Are they doing it for profit? Power? Control? Political aspirations? Most of the characters you work for in Saboteur are not noble or altruistic and part of the appeal of the story is figuring out their underlying motives.

No, you can't align yourselves with the Nazis. However, that doesn't mean that the people you can align yourself with are "good."

Except that Saboteur feels and plays so much more like Merc 2 than any of the other games in the genre because of the engine similarities.

The fundamental gameplay in Mercenaries, Saboteur, GTA, Scarface, Just Cause, etc, all feels pretty much the same. Everything from the shooting mechanics to the driving mechanics (except in GTA4 where vehicles had horrible handling) is very similar. Some sandbox games stand out because they give you superpowers (Spider-Man, Prototype, Hulk, Crackdown) and emphasize over-the-top melee combat. But any sandbox game that focuses on guns and vehicles shares the same basic feel.
 
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21. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 10, 2010, 08:37 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 10, 2010, 02:52:
Oh yeah, forgot about that. Still, it's not quite the same as trying to sneak your way through a group of Nazis at a party so you can assassinate a target.
Yes, in Saboteur Pandemic expanded on the disguise feature.

I don't know about you but I spent the majority of my time in Saboteur jumping around rooftops. It was the best way to evade guards and it was pretty much essential when you had tons of heat on you.
For me sniping from the roofs was fun for awhile, but it got old because it made the game too easy because you could simply hide up on the roof.

How much did you play beyond the intro cutscene?
Enough ot it to see that the later parts of the plot don't make much sense either. I watched all of the cutscene movies too outside of the game.

Sean is working with the various factions so that they can lead him to Dierker, the guy who killed his friend. He knows that they're using him and he doesn't trust them.
But that doesn't make any sense because Sean didn't seek out the Resistance. It recruited him. And, if he is just looking for Dierker, befriending some German soldiers or collaborating with the Germans as a spy would be alot more effective than consorting with their enemies (which is what got him and his friend into trouble in the first place). I realize you didn't write the game's plot. I am just pointing out that it is very incongruous.

There's nothing altruistic or nationalistic about the protagonist. He is motivated by revenge and a general dislike of Nazis.
And that's why he's not a believable character. The Nazis have invaded Europe and are bombing his homeland in preparation for an invasion. That's not something to be so cavalier about. Personal revenge would take a back seat to that especially in this case because it's Sean's own damn fault that his friend was shot because he chose to be a smartass to Dierker rather than cooperate.

Out for revenge because somebody shot your character in the ass and didn't pay him/her. Not terribly deep stuff.
It's deep in the sense of plot complexity not ideology.

That's not to say that Saboteur is Hamlet or anything but it's definitely got more layers than Mercenaries.
The layers in Saboteur are much more unrealistic than the layers in Mercenaries 2.

Same applies to the factions in Saboteur. None of them are presented as saints and they all have ulterior motives which Sean is well aware of.
No, in Saboteur you have two clear sides: good versus evil with the Nazi's clearly being the evil enemy and everyone else being good. Yes, some of the characters' motives aren't totally pure such as the weapons dealers, but they are still contributing to the overall fight against the Nazis. When you roam the streets in Saboteur, the Nazi's are your enemy. So, if you trigger the AI, you get a relentless wave of Nazi's. In Merc 2 there is a little more variety and triggering one group doesn't cause all of the enemies in the game to attack you. If Saboteur really wanted to have some depth like Mercenaries 2, there would be a collaborating faction in the game, and Sean could choose to ally himself with them or work directly with the Nazis for at least some missions. That would also make more sense with his goal of finding or getting close to Dierker to kill him.

Welcome to the sandbox action genre. Mercenaries 2, meet GTA. Or Scarface. Or Godfather. Or any pseudorealistic sandbox game, pretty much.
Except that Saboteur feels and plays so much more like Merc 2 than any of the other games in the genre because of the engine similarities. When I played it, it instantly felt like a mod of Merc 2. That's not a bad thing if you liked Merc 2, but it's worth noting if you didn't.

This comment was edited on Apr 10, 2010, 17:39.
 
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20. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 10, 2010, 02:52 Jerykk
 
In Mercs you can disguise yourself as a member of one of the factions or a civilian by stealing one of their vehicles, and enemies will ignore you. There's a HUD meter that shows the integrity of your current disguise.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Still, it's not quite the same as trying to sneak your way through a group of Nazis at a party so you can assassinate a target.

The climbing and rooftop running aren't that big of a difference because Saboteur is not primarily a platformer.

I don't know about you but I spent the majority of my time in Saboteur jumping around rooftops. It was the best way to evade guards and it was pretty much essential when you had tons of heat on you.

The agent from the resistence goads him into fighting using some nationalistic and altruistic machismo guilt trip. It has nothing to do with his friend's murder. Quite frankly it makes no sense why he is even in France unless he is trying to flee from having to fight for his own country.

How much did you play beyond the intro cutscene? Sean is working with the various factions so that they can lead him to Dierker, the guy who killed his friend. He knows that they're using him and he doesn't trust them. There's nothing altruistic or nationalistic about the protagonist. He is motivated by revenge and a general dislike of Nazis.

And the mercs in Mercenaries 2 are also out for revenge. See the similar pattern?

Out for revenge because somebody shot your character in the ass and didn't pay him/her. Not terribly deep stuff. That's not to say that Saboteur is Hamlet or anything but it's definitely got more layers than Mercenaries.

Everyone in Merc 2 is at least a little dirty, and it makes the game more interesting because it's not some simple morality play where you just shoot the bad guy because it's harder to tell who's really the enemy, i.e. is it the oppressive Venezuelan government, is it the exploitive megacorporations, or is it you, the greedy merc for hire who plays both sides against one another to get what you want?

Same applies to the factions in Saboteur. None of them are presented as saints and they all have ulterior motives which Sean is well aware of.

And they use the same engine, have very similar AI and combat, and are both heavily story-driven with developed characters and dialog for sandbox games.

Welcome to the sandbox action genre. Mercenaries 2, meet GTA. Or Scarface. Or Godfather. Or any pseudorealistic sandbox game, pretty much.

So, per my original point, if you like one of the games, you will very likely like the other one as well.

I think if you like sandbox games in general, you'll like Saboteur. If you don't like sandbox games, you won't.

Already did from the dev's website. Ordering from there will get you a steam activation.

Really? Nice. I ordered directly from the devs but didn't know about the Steam bonus. Now if only more people would preorder so we can get the commentary track. They're hoping to reach 2000 preorders by May but they only around 500 so far.
 
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19. Re: On Sale Apr 9, 2010, 18:06 Creston
 
nin wrote on Apr 9, 2010, 09:52:
Jerykk wrote on Apr 8, 2010, 23:03:
Everybody should pre-order Amnesia kthx.


Already did from the dev's website. Ordering from there will get you a steam activation.


I'm sure he means you should steal it, like he does.


So in essence he's pre-stealing? This piracy stuff is getting complicated.

Creston
 
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18. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 9, 2010, 12:45 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 9, 2010, 04:44:
In Saboteur, you wear disguises
In Mercs you can disguise yourself as a member of one of the factions or a civilian by stealing one of their vehicles, and enemies will ignore you. There's a HUD meter that shows the integrity of your current disguise.

enemies have varying levels of awareness
So does Merc 2. A faction will attack you if you show any hostility towards it including showing a weapon or by stealing their fuel even if you are supposed to be working for them.

It's not a minor difference at all. That's like saying that the only difference between Prince of Persia and MS Flight Simulator is that you use vehicles in Flight Simulator. Completely different gameplay mechanics.
It's not a completely different gameplay mechanic because you can also play Mercenaries 2 predominately on foot as well. The climbing and rooftop running aren't that big of a difference because Saboteur is not primarily a platformer. It's Merc 2's same gameplay with this element added and the vehicle combat somewhat diminished.

I didn't think he was out of place at all. He never claimed to be fighting for the Resistance. His motivations aren't that altruistic.
Did you not watch the opening cutscene? The agent from the resistence goads him into fighting using some nationalistic and altruistic machismo guilt trip. It has nothing to do with his friend's murder. Quite frankly it makes no sense why he is even in France unless he is trying to flee from having to fight for his own country. Sean is presented as some type of reluctant hero expatriot. Instead a Frenchman would have been a much more suitable protagonist. The game would also be better if you could play it as more than one character such as other members of the French Resistance or as Skylar the British agent as you can in Mercenaries 2.

He simply wants revenge for the murder of a close friend
And the mercs in Mercenaries 2 are also out for revenge. See the similar pattern?

I found him a lot more sympathetic and interesting than the shallow characters in Mercenaries.
The characters in Mercenaries aren't more shallow. If anything they are more complex because the plot is not some obvious good versus evil struggle. Everyone in Merc 2 is at least a little dirty, and it makes the game more interesting because it's not some simple morality play where you just shoot the bad guy because it's harder to tell who's really the enemy, i.e. is it the oppressive Venezuelan government, is it the exploitive megacorporations, or is it you, the greedy merc for hire who plays both sides against one another to get what you want?

Mercenaries and Saboteur are similar in that they are both sandbox games where you shoot people and blow stuff up.
And they use the same engine, have very similar AI and combat, and are both heavily story-driven with developed characters and dialog for sandbox games. The games simply feel and play very similarly since they were developed by the same developer and use the same engine. Anyone who has played both games can tell they were made by the same developer using the same tools.

So, per my original point, if you like one of the games, you will very likely like the other one as well. And the reverse is true if you hate one of them. The only caveat to that is that Mercenaries 2 does have multiplayer mode (though you have to use a crack now that EA shutdown the support for it). So, you may like the co-op gameplay of Merc 2 and still dislike Saboteur since it has no multiplayer mode.

This comment was edited on Apr 9, 2010, 14:23.
 
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17. Re: On Sale Apr 9, 2010, 10:14 JoeNapalm
 

Hmm. I didn't know 7.62 was out in English.

I'd be willing to pick it up for $9. I actually liked BE5...I mean, it was a mess, gfx and interface wise, but it was the best turn-based tactical game since Silent Storm.

It was actually quite realistic, if you could get past it being hideous. Maybe the most realistic CQB game I've ever seen.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
 
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16. Re: On Sale Apr 9, 2010, 09:52 nin
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 8, 2010, 23:03:
Everybody should pre-order Amnesia kthx.


Already did from the dev's website. Ordering from there will get you a steam activation.


I'm sure he means you should steal it, like he does.

 
http://www.nin.com/pub/tension/
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15. Re: On Sale Apr 9, 2010, 09:12 tony
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 8, 2010, 23:03:
Everybody should pre-order Amnesia kthx.

Already did from the dev's website. Ordering from there will get you a steam activation.
 
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14. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 9, 2010, 04:44 Jerykk
 
Both games have the same type of AI triggers.

In Saboteur, you wear disguises and enemies have varying levels of awareness. If you're running around or pointing your gun at people, you are much more suspicious and enemies are much more likely to notice you. I don't recall Mercenaries 2 having any kind of stealth elements or AI like this.

In Saboteur you can climb up buildings and run on the rooftops, but Mercenaries 2 has more vehicle action including air vehicles.

It's not a minor difference at all. That's like saying that the only difference between Prince of Persia and MS Flight Simulator is that you use vehicles in Flight Simulator. Completely different gameplay mechanics.

Saboteur just has you play as a stereotypical Irishman who I didn't have much interest in or sympathy for, and who is really out of place in a game about the French resistance.

I didn't think he was out of place at all. He never claimed to be fighting for the Resistance. His motivations aren't that altruistic. He simply wants revenge for the murder of a close friend and he uses the Resistance (and they use him) to this end. I found him a lot more sympathetic and interesting than the shallow characters in Mercenaries.

Mercenaries and Saboteur are similar in that they are both sandbox games where you shoot people and blow stuff up. However, by that token, you could say that every sandbox game is the same because you do that stuff in every one. The differences lie in the details and I think the details of Saboteur were much better developed than the details in Mercenaries 2.
 
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13. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 9, 2010, 04:02 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 9, 2010, 01:37:
Except that Saboteur has stealth
So does Mercenaries 2 in the same sense that you don't want to alarm or agitate the troops or they pursue you relentlessly when you are trying to perform missions just like in Saboteur. Both games have the same type of AI triggers. Saboteur has a little more of this because there is only one enemy faction, but you can certainly play the game without being stealthy. It's just harder.

and platforming.
That is a minor difference between the two games I had overlooked because I didn't think much of it. In Saboteur you can climb up buildings and run on the rooftops, but Mercenaries 2 has more vehicle action including air vehicles.

And a better story.

I disagree there. Both games have plots that are developed about equally. You may like one over the other due to personal preference, but both games have equal stories in terms of development. I personally prefer Mercenaries 2's story since I am so very tired of WWII games.

Mercenaries 2 also has more variety in the characters since you can play as one of three different protagonists which makes its dialog and story better in terms of replayability. Saboteur just has you play as a stereotypical Irishman who I didn't have much interest in or sympathy for, and who is really out of place in a game about the French resistance.

And better combat.
The combat and the AI feel essentially identical to me given that both games use the same engine. I didn't play Saboteur as much as I have played Mercenaries 2, but what I did play felt like much the same game with only subtle differences.

This comment was edited on Apr 9, 2010, 04:16.
 
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12. Re: On Sale Apr 9, 2010, 03:18 Shadowcat
 
I have been told that Mount & Blade Warband, although initially intended as an expansion, is in fact a stand-alone all-encompassing enhanced version of the original game, such that if you have Warband, there is no longer any reason whatsoever to have the original game installed.

If that is true, then this "bundle" at Impulse is a bit crap.
 
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11. Re: Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 9, 2010, 01:37 Jerykk
 
Saboteur is Mercenaries 2 set in WWII France and without any multiplayer. So, if you liked single-player Mercenaries 2, you'll like Saboteur. But, if you didn't...even Saboteur's bare breasted models won't make the game entertaining for long.

Except that Saboteur has stealth and platforming. And a better story. And better combat.
 
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10. Saboteur is Mercenaries 2. Apr 9, 2010, 00:58 I've Got The News Blues
 
Jerykk wrote on Apr 8, 2010, 23:20:
Not listed here is Saboteur for $30 on Amazon. I thought the game was very underrated and was easily one of the better sandbox games. Definitely worth a go if you like those kind of games.
Saboteur is Mercenaries 2 set in WWII France and without any multiplayer. So, if you liked single-player Mercenaries 2, you'll like Saboteur. But, if you didn't...even Saboteur's bare breasted models won't make the game entertaining for long.
 
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9. Re: On Sale Apr 9, 2010, 00:13 Prez
 
For some reason, the MP for King Arthur is exclusive to Steam. I never missed it myself.  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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