I thought of another: Zork. It's one of the granddaddies of them all and yet I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find any adventure gamers that don't consider it an adventure game. Per your definition, it wouldn't qualify.

Why not? Other than your own say-so, you haven't given any reasons for this.

It's a combination of character-leveling mechanics (usually revolving around combat) and adventure-style story/quest driven gameplay.

Note that the latter usually includes somewhat freeform game worlds (i.e. non-linear movement), ability to interact with other characters, ability to obtain/use items, etc.

BF and CoD don't qualify, because the leveling in those games is strictly tied to multiplayer which is purely action.

Yifes wrote on Feb 28, 2010, 14:54:
Doesn't the term RPG originate from PnP? If so, then it's reasonable to apply the features of PnP and Western RPGs to the definition of a RPG.

It always seemed to me that JRPGs are misnomer, and since then, the term RPG has only been misused more and more, with ever broadening definitions, so that it has lost most of its original meaning.

This is still ridiculously broad, with criteria open to wildly different interpretations. There are RPGs without adventure style stories (like some tactical RPGs which are just a series of missions), and there are multiplayer shooters with quest driven gameplay (ie. take this objective, get experience, level up). It seems like all you're doing is drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.

shponglefan wrote on Feb 28, 2010, 10:31:

Jerykk wrote on Feb 28, 2010, 03:44:
If a game doesn't give you any meaningful choices, it can't be a role-playing game.

Why not? Other than your own say-so, you haven't given any reasons for this.

It seems you've defined RPG based on solely on earlier Western CRPGs, which grew out of PnP RPGs.

Like i said three times now, it's not strictly leveling. It's a combination of character-leveling mechanics (usually revolving around combat) and adventure-style story/quest driven gameplay.

Zyrxil wrote on Feb 28, 2010, 12:41:

Evil Timmy wrote on Feb 27, 2010, 17:46:
If that's all you do in ME2's combat sequences, try cranking up the difficulty. At one notch above normal, not only is nearly every battle a real challenge, but enemies will move up and flank, and they're a serious enough threat to force you to move. Even early on, I found myself tactically repositioning my squaddies around corners and such to cover my retreats and advances, just so I wouldn't get slaughtered. It really makes the game a lot better, when you're not nigh invincible and you've actually gotta consider how you play, rather than hiding in one spot or just unloading and counting on superior firepower.

Hahahaha. Oh, I almost thought you were serious. Even at Insanity, the only difference is that enemies tend to have 3 health bars- health/armor/shield, instead of just the basic health. No flanking done, everything is the same, but you take a ton more damage.

Evil Timmy wrote on Feb 27, 2010, 17:46:
If that's all you do in ME2's combat sequences, try cranking up the difficulty. At one notch above normal, not only is nearly every battle a real challenge, but enemies will move up and flank, and they're a serious enough threat to force you to move. Even early on, I found myself tactically repositioning my squaddies around corners and such to cover my retreats and advances, just so I wouldn't get slaughtered. It really makes the game a lot better, when you're not nigh invincible and you've actually gotta consider how you play, rather than hiding in one spot or just unloading and counting on superior firepower.

Jerykk wrote on Feb 28, 2010, 03:44:
As such, I think it's reasonable to use those traits to define the genre.

If a game doesn't give you any meaningful choices, it can't be a role-playing game.

The whole point of genres is to make it easier to classify games. If you use such broad definitions, there's no point in having genres at all. If an RPG is defined as any game that has leveling, that means CoD, BF, God of War and a host of other games are RPGs.

Adventure games need not be completely linear (i.e. The Void) and they also don't necessarily need revolve around puzzle solving (i.e. The Path).

Just like you can have non-linear adventure games, you can have linear RPGs. It doesn't make them non-RPGs.

Jerykk wrote on Feb 28, 2010, 00:27:
Define "adventure game." To me, an adventure game is a completely linear, story-driven game that revolves around puzzle-solving and NPC conversation. While RPGs do have NPC conversations, they typically do not revolve around puzzle-solving, nor are they completely linear.

RPGs need to be open-ended because it is the genre that is defined by having the most choice.

There's the whole adventure game component, too.

Jerykk wrote on Feb 27, 2010, 21:53:
Leveling alone is not sufficient to qualify as an RPG.

No, the only thing RPGs "should" do is let you level up your character.

RPGs really are just adventure games with leveling mechanics.

RPG only means what you want it to mean is basically what you're saying.

An RPG should let you solve each situation in a manner of ways (though these typically boil down to violence, stealth or persuasion). It should also let you make high-level choices (otherwise known as moral choices) that have a greater impact on the story and the game world.

Actual if anything JRPGs are probably the most highly specific form of roleplaying. You quite literally play in character.

Your beef is that you want freeform RPG and you've got a whole genre of that so you should really stop whining like a 5 year old about it all the time.

Jerykk wrote on Feb 27, 2010, 18:59:
I don't have any problems with the combat in JRPGs. I have problems with the complete and utter lack of actual roleplaying.

Like most console role-playing games, every so often, a random battle will occur, with the player and enemy taking turns attacking one another until one or the other is dead; if the player expires (accompanied by a faster version of Taps being played), a simple hit of the Reset switch brings him back to life right where he lies, but with all of his collected gold lost and his Strength and Dexterity reset to their normal values. Experience points do not exist in the game, although every so often, items such as staves, potions, or magic rings will be found in the spoils of battle, or inside of the aforementioned buildings. These items have a random chance of either raising or lowering the player's Strength or Dexterity.