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Steam Torchlight Patched

Steam News announces a patch for the Steam edition of Torchlight is now automatically available that adds Steam Cloud functionality and over 60 Steam achievements to Runic's action/RPG. In celebration, they've put the game on sale for half-off until Monday.

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45. Re: Steam Torchlight Patched Dec 28, 2009, 03:12 Jerykk
 
The value that the company assigned to their consumers to be able to play the game upon release was $20.

Except a lot of people aren't paying $20. They are waiting for it to drop to $10. Do you think the developer makes any distinction between a pirate who buys their game for $10 and a non-pirate who buys their game for $10. Nope. $10 is $10. This isn't really about developers, it's about superficially taking the moral high ground. It's perfectly okay for consumers to be as cheap as possible and only buy games when they hit the bargain bin. It's okay because it's legal! But God forbid, a pirate buys the game at the exact same price... totally immoral. Scandalous, even.

Let's look at this practically. MSRP is what publishers and developers want you to pay. That's why it's MSRP. If their game isn't selling enough at that price, it gets lowered, but they would still prefer that everyone pay the full MSRP. That's the price they consider when establishing a game's budget. Make no mistake, you buying a game for $10 instead of $20 is the same as a pirate buying a game for $10 instead of $20.

The guy who waits legally pays less but in return doesn't get to play the game immediately. See the difference and why your piracy is abuse?

No, because it's a purely superficial difference. Publishers and developers don't care if you play a game now or play it later. They only care if you buy the game now, ideally at full price. Deluxe edition if possible. In fact, you should pre-order it too. Publishers and developers love pre-orders.

In the end, it comes to this. Most people don't give a shit about rewarding developers for their work. They just want to play games for as cheap as possible. Within this group, there are two types of people: those who care about the law and those who don't. The people who care about the law refuse to pirate because it contradicts with their own sense of morality. Those that don't care about the law will pirate because it agrees with their sense of morality. In either case, publishers and developers don't care. They don't care why you buy a game. They only care that you buy it (again, preferably at MSRP). Nothing else really matters. Sorry if that fact offends your sensibilities.

You just don't get it do you? I have no problems with what you're doing. Some support is a hell lot better than none. There's real pirates out there for me to be pissed off about. But you can't justify that you're not abusing the developers, albeit to a small degree.

You keep asking whether we get it but it seems you'd be better off asking yourself. You do realize that morality is subjective, right? And that your current sense of righteous indignation has no relevance at all to the people who actually make these games? You can keep arguing that it's inherently wrong to illegally play a game before buying it. I'm sure many people agree with you. The point that Dev and I are making is that none of this matters to PUBLISHERS and DEVELOPERS. $10 is $10. Profit is all that matters. If you pay $10, it doesn't matter if you're a pirate, a rapist, a Nazi, a child molestor, a terrorist, a kangaroo or an oil tycoon. It's still $10.

What you do afterwards does not retrospectively make your original actions acceptable.

Publishers and developers would disagree. I'm sure they are happy that Dev gave them $10 instead of nothing. He didn't have to give them a penny. Buying their game turned him into a paying customer and that's all they care about.

This comment was edited on Dec 28, 2009, 03:22.
 
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44. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 23, 2009, 20:42 Dev
 
LOL, you guys are talking as if its a bad thing that I bought it. The devs got thier money, and I got to try the game. There's no differance to thier bottom line compared to any other customer who bought it from steam when I did.

The only thing I think I'm entitled to is the product I pay for.

If a company doesn't want to do demos, thats up to them. If the game isn't availible for me to try somehow, and its not a game I know I want to buy (such as left for dead or fallout), then I probably won't buy it. The harder a company makes it for me to evaluate it, the less likely I'll be to buy it.

This comment was edited on Dec 23, 2009, 20:48.
 
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43. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 23, 2009, 13:59 nin
 
You still don't get it do you? It doesn't matter that you would have waited to buy the game anyways. It doesn't matter that there are other games out there that you didn't pirate and try out before hand. What you would have done and what you have done in other cases does not justify one bit why you pirated the game this time instead of playing the perfectly good full feature demo or just paying the cheap asking price of $20.

The issue here isn't how much financial loss you caused the developers, which we've established as minimal. The issue here is that you somehow feel entitled to pirate games and try them for free without the developers consent. What you do afterwards does not retrospectively make your original actions acceptable.

People who pirate tend to like to spin the story any way they can to justify their actions as acceptable.

 
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42. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 23, 2009, 13:39 Verno
 
If it is available on the Internet then many people feel they are entitled to it. You can't really reason with most of them unfortunately.  
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41. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 23, 2009, 13:23 Yifes
 
I would be waiting for a sale on games I wanted regardless of if I tried it beforehand or not.

"OMG you are costing devs because you tried out the game", doesn't hold water in my particular case.

You still don't get it do you? It doesn't matter that you would have waited to buy the game anyways. It doesn't matter that there are other games out there that you didn't pirate and try out before hand. What you would have done and what you have done in other cases does not justify one bit why you pirated the game this time instead of playing the perfectly good full feature demo or just paying the cheap asking price of $20.

The issue here isn't how much financial loss you caused the developers, which we've established as minimal. The issue here is that you somehow feel entitled to pirate games and try them for free without the developers consent. What you do afterwards does not retrospectively make your original actions acceptable.

This comment was edited on Dec 23, 2009, 13:41.
 
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40. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 22, 2009, 18:48 Dev
 
I would be waiting for a sale on games I wanted regardless of if I tried it beforehand or not. For instance, the main reason I purchased Borderlands on release was because I was able to get in on a 4 pack, I wasn't going to spend full price on it. There's been only a couple games I've paid full price for in years. One of them was L4D1 (and you can see how valve repaid me for doing that). Another was Fallout 3 (and actually for that one I used a $25 gift card from EB from purchasing Unreal 2004! The gift card was so old, I had to call up EB and get them to send me a replacement since thier computers didn't recognize mine anymore. Good thing california has laws about gift cards never expiring. Part of the reason is that I've switched to purchasing almost all my games on steam). Neither game did I try out first before buying (demo or download). So all this argument about "OMG you are costing devs because you tried out the game", doesn't hold water in my particular case. Valve has demonstrated with sales (and the figures to back them up) how companies can earn MORE by putting thier games on sale. Even though the price per game decreases, the volume increases enough to make up for that. Now I'm sure thats not the case all the time, and in fact I'm sure a big part of that is due to the limited time appearance of sales, so leaving it at that lowered price might not have the same effect.

StingingVelvet:
Many probably do, but I don't use torrents, so I don't upload and I don't help others in that fashion (which I implied earlier when talking about time, but I'll explicitly state it).
Why would I pay money to devs if I didn't care about their success? LOL

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2009, 21:07.
 
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39. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 22, 2009, 11:24 xXBatmanXx
 
I would have paid 20 had I not had a million other games to play. The market is flooded with quality titles right now....a full price game will not get my attention for some time.

That being said, I think it is a $40.00 game. I wish them all the best of success. I look forward to their MMO and any other projects they put out.
 
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38. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 22, 2009, 08:58 StingingVelvet
 
More importantly if you only buy games at $10 then the message you are sending developers is that they can only sell a lot of copies at that price. Their budgets and the products will change accordingly. Your actions have consequences, whether they are immediately tangible or not.

Indeed.

And as was said earlier Torchlight is a PC exclusive made for a particular audience and done very well, I have seen it on many PC-only gamer's game of the year lists.

I agree that paying them something at some point is a hell of a lot better than paying them nothing ever, but as said there is no reward for being a cheap-ass like that, just like there is no reward for putting a quarter in a tip jar.

More to the point games make most of their profit in the early days when they are full price. Developers rely on this profit to stay in business and make more games. Part of the value of full-priced games is playing them on day-one as soon as they are released. That is the reason they cost full price then and cost less later, that added value of playing as soon as possible. When you pirate a game on day one and pay for it when it hits half-price you are robbing the developer of $25 by circumventing the added value of day-one ownership.

On top of that you seed the game to pure pirates and contribute to the PC piracy statistics and image as well as depriving essential early sales numbers for developers.

As said in this thread it all ties into the bullshit sense of entitlement that the Internet has given us. You want it now on your terms and don't care about the actual creator's desires or success. It's a spoiled brat way of thinking and it shows utter disregard for the developer community and PC gaming as a whole.
 
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37. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 22, 2009, 08:33 Verno
 
More importantly if you only buy games at $10 then the message you are sending developers is that they can only sell a lot of copies at that price. Their budgets and the products will change accordingly. Your actions have consequences, whether they are immediately tangible or not.  
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36. Re: Steam Torchlight Patched Dec 22, 2009, 01:55 Yifes
 
Well if you are so gung ho on "omg he got to play it for a month before buying it", then by your logic it must make a differance that I probably played the downloaded version for less than 5 hours.

So you're saying that you only stole 3 hours of gametime? Do you want a congrats or something?

By your logic, its also evil to play at a friends house.

When did playing at a friends house become piracy? When did that become illegal? And when did I say you abusing the developers was evil? Your extrapolation of my logic makes no sense.

BTW, its still a two way street. The seller is still dictating the price that he's selling at, and I'm still the ultimate arbitrar of if I'll buy it or not at that price.

No, it's not, because the developers initially offered you their game for $20. You said no thank you, but proceeded to pirate it anyways. There was no deal, no two way street. You had the full game for free for 3 months, and the developers had NO say in it what so ever. It just happens that 3 months later, the developers offered you another deal, and this time you accepted. Just because you eventually made one legal transaction doesn't retrospectively make everything legit.

You just don't get it do you? I have no problems with what you're doing. Some support is a hell lot better than none. There's real pirates out there for me to be pissed off about. But you can't justify that you're not abusing the developers, albeit to a small degree.

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2009, 02:12.
 
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35. Re: Steam Torchlight Patched Dec 22, 2009, 01:35 Dev
 
Yifes:
Well if you are so gung ho on "omg he got to play it for a month before buying it", then by your logic it must make a differance that I probably played the downloaded version for less than 5 hours. There's been just too many other good games I've purchased recently (such as L4D2 and borderlands) that I haven't had time to do much with it.

By your logic, its also evil to play at a friends house. I guess people should be happy to pay for a license for each computer and each person playing when a company decides they should. BTW, this is one of the reasons I like impulse and steam. They don't give you grief about installing on both your home computer and your laptop.

BTW, its still a two way street. The seller is still dictating the price that he's selling at, and I'm still the ultimate arbitrar of if I'll buy it or not at that price. The consumer always dictates if he buys it or not, regardless of if he's tried a demo or the full thing at a friends house, or a downloaded version, or even none of the above.

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2009, 01:45.
 
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34. Re: Steam Torchlight Patched Dec 22, 2009, 01:15 Yifes
 
Dev:
I suppose people who don't want to pay $60 for just released games but want to wait until it hits half price are also "naming thier own price and payment schedule." Like people waiting for L4D2 Christmas sale, how dare they.

Jerykk:
I don't really see how that matters. To a publisher or developer, the end result is the same. Playing a game first and then buying it for $10 is the same as buying a game for $10 and then playing it. In the end, both people are paying $10 and that's really all that matters.

You guys obviously don't get the point.

The value that the company assigned to their consumers to be able to play the game upon release was $20. Dev then proceeded to pirate the game, and play it for free. Months later, the game goes on sale, and Dev purchases it for $10. Essentially, he ripped off the developers of $10, and got the same time-value from the game as someone who paid the full price, hence dictating his own price and payment schedule for a game. This is vastly different from the guy who waits legally for L4D2 to drop in price. The guy who waits legally pays less but in return doesn't get to play the game immediately. See the difference and why your piracy is abuse?

Except people do it all the time. It's the nature of capitalism. The consumer decides how much things are worth.

Except capitalism is a 2 way street. The consumer gets to decide how much things are worth, and the seller gets to determine what price they're willing to sell at. A deal is made when there is a mutal agreement. In this case, obviously the developers were not willing to let people play their game on day 1 for free, and then pay them $10 3 months later.

Piracy is abuse because the person who pirates dictates the terms of the entire transaction. Seriously, next time try going to a business and telling them how much their product/service is worth and when you're goign to pay them without letting them name their terms. I don't think you understand how capitalism works.

If you like abusing the system and breaking the law, fine. Just stop with the bullshit justifciations and self-entitlement.

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2009, 01:45.
 
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33. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 22, 2009, 00:54 Dev
 
xXBatmanXx:
Thats kinda what I'm trying to do. I also used to download games a lot more frequently long ago. Nowadays steam sales put so many games at good prices, I just snap them up. I haven't even played all the games I've purchased on steam Now I generally am not buying games I didn't like, so you have me there. But the prices on steam sales do encourage impulse buying of games I haven't even tried yet. Its hard to resist things like $10 sales on games I've heard good things about even if I've never tried them.

As for PC games, I think partly the attitude of not paying at all that gets us fewer and fewer games. Keep in mind I did pay for torchlight.
There's many other factors involved too. Such as there being such a horde of lower denominator console players who vastly outnumber the PC gamers. So making games that appeal to lower denominations just makes good business sense. And of course when you can buy an xbox for $200 (which is in the realm of Christmas presents for many familys), compared to a nice gaming computer of $500ish...

This comment was edited on Dec 22, 2009, 01:00.
 
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32. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 21, 2009, 23:03 xXBatmanXx
 
I used to steal a lot of games with the thought that I would buy them later. I have since gone back and bought tons of games that I didn't origianlly purchase and had "tried out" regardless if I liked them or not. Now I just wait for sales, demos, or input from others. There is such a vast amout of games to play, that there is NO REASON to pirate a game at all.

That is the attitude that gets us zero games on PC and a world of consoles and garbage.

On a lighter note....anyone have issues with Torchlight crashing? Lately it is throwing exception errors and CTD.
 
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31. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 21, 2009, 13:34 Verno
 
You're free to do whatever you like Dev but Torchlight is the perfect example of a developer who understands and caters to the PC gaming market. Pirating their games and getting it after a price drop isn't some morally bankrupt process that damns you to hell but keep your user experience in mind for their next title. If all they can sell is $10 copies then their next project's budget could be dropped accordingly.  
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30. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 21, 2009, 10:27 Dev
 
nin:

On occasion I have tried out games that way, and I don't check to see if they have demos first, because of the reasons I listed earlier. If I think they are good games, then I'll try and purchase them.

If that little facet of my existance suddenly turns all my previous posts unreasonable in your eyes, thats certainly your perogative.

This comment was edited on Dec 21, 2009, 10:28.
 
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29. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 21, 2009, 09:48 nin
 
nin:
Ah, so the fact that they aren't playing it (or its demo) while waiting for it to drop the price, means they aren't "naming thier own price" ?

Got it.

I really don't care that you got it on sale, my problem was you bypassed a demo that perfectly represented the game in favor of pirating it for a few months without paying.

If you can't see that, well, I feel sorry for you. I was under the impression you were one of the more reasonable posters here, but it sounds like you pirate just like JeryKKK...



This comment was edited on Dec 21, 2009, 10:27.
 
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28. Re: Steam Torchlight Patch Dec 21, 2009, 09:43 Dev
 
nin:
Ah, so the fact that they aren't playing it (or its demo) while waiting for it to drop the price, means they aren't "naming thier own price" ?

Got it.
 
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27. Re: Steam Torchlight Patched Dec 21, 2009, 09:40 nin
 
I also wasn't naming my price, they named it, and they named it as $10.

But you didn't buy it @ $20. (It sounds like) You stole it and then paid $10 later. So I'd say you did name your price.



I suppose people who don't want to pay $60 for just released games but want to wait until it hits half price are also "naming thier own price and payment schedule."

Are they stealing it and playing it in the meantime? Or are they not playing it, and waiting for it to go on sale?


 
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26. Re: Steam Torchlight Patched Dec 20, 2009, 06:03 Jerykk
 
Except he pirated it when it first came out. He played it immediately, and only waited to pay for it, at a discount.

I don't really see how that matters. To a publisher or developer, the end result is the same. Playing a game first and then buying it for $10 is the same as buying a game for $10 and then playing it. In the end, both people are paying $10 and that's really all that matters.

Just stop trying to justify how you're entitled to break the law for instant self-gratification and what is essentially the ability to name your own price and payment schedule for other people's work.

Except people do it all the time. It's the nature of capitalism. The consumer decides how much things are worth. The only difference between pirates and non-pirates is how they decide this value. A non-pirate assumes a game's value based on reviews, trailers, marketing, word of mouth, etc. A pirate simply plays the game and derives the value from that. You can call it instant gratification but again, the only thing that matters is whether or not you reward the developers who make good games.
 
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