You two need a live podcast.

Yes, it is. It's me saying "Yes, that's why we see so many of them... oh wait, no we don't." There's a significant difference between "many" and "any." I never said we don't see any JRPGs, I just said that we don't see that many compared to the more popular genres these days.

Similarly, we still see JRPGs, most of which are low-budget Wii/PS2/DS affairs. There are a few big-budget ones that get released every so often and all of them fail to sell a million units. FF is the exception because it's a 20-year-old franchise with a huge fanbase. It sells because of its name.

History shows that new franchises in PC-centric genres have been far more successful than new franchises in console-centric genres.

I'm saying that their popularity has greatly declined since the 90's, whereas the PC-centric genres of shooters and western RPGs have grown substantially in popularity. For some reason you take this as some kind of insult.

I referred to VGChartz

Are you completely retarded? How do sales not represent popularity? I'm seriously baffled. I think you must be trolling at this point because I know you're not this dense.

I think the problem is that you apparently have no reading comprehension.

That's you in reference to jRPGs.

The presence of numerous non-FF titles that are brought to market every year does however.

Introducing new franchises period is a risky proposition, just ask EA who tried last year.

I have no clue where this sudden "shooters and RPGs are all that exists and is popular in the universe!" attitude comes from but coming from a niche opinion holder like yourself, it's especially amusing.

I disproved your claim and now you just want a chart? A chart alone isn't an argument.

Sales really have nothing to do with the discussion, you're just shifting the goalposts again.

Mass Effect didn't sell as much as Final Fantasy 12, does that make Mass Effect less popular in North America?

Sales alone do not mean one genre is suddenly dead because X game in Y genre sold more units than it.

Your own logic and points don't support eachother.

) I'm pretty sure I never said that JRPGs aren't around anymore. Please point out where I did.

Yes, that's why we see so many of them... oh wait, no we don't.

2) The success of Final Fantasy doesn't prove that the market for JRPGs is strong.

New JRPG series tend to fail.

Diversify? Where is the diversity in the fighting genre? Seriously, how many new fighting series have we seen in the past decade?

Feel free to list all the JRPGs from the past 8 years. And then list how many sold at least a million units. Don't forget to actually provide a source for your numbers.

So sales aren't representative of popularity? Really? That's news to me. And here I thought shooters were a popular genre.

Hopefully one day you will gain the ability to formulate a sound argument and support it with actual fact.

You said jRPGs weren't around anymore, now you're shifting the goalposts and making it about popularity.

Given that most of the companies localizing and releasing jRPGs are largely the same as two decades ago then no sorry.

It's not something localized to one specific genre or culture of players, people all around the world are playing more types of videogames than in the past.

Publishers diversify a lot more than they used to for one, it's not enough to just bank on Street Fighter every year because people are fickle and you can only churn out so many sequels.

Sorry, you don't get to play pick and choose with timelines on one hand then say "oh but where are all the jRPGs/etc this year?" on the other.

You purposely ignored everything I said about how platformers largely belong to a younger audience which plays them on a different platform.

And that has nothing to do with genres not being popular or viable simply because you don't play them personally.

Don't make the assumption that everyone else is you, a common problem for you on this site as we've seen frequently.

Except for the part where hes right considering consoles existed just fine, created their own genres and thrived before ever getting involved with PC developers. You haven't addressed that at all and can't really do so which is I suspect you continue to misdirect the issue to popularity and other nonsense that wasn't even part of the discussion initially.

The fact is many PC developers moved to the console market and brought their habits, preferences and franchises with them.

Then it looks like I just gained some new powers because read above.

Those are two of the most established franchises out there. They've been around since the Nintendo and represent the exception that proves the rule. How many new JRPG series sell millions?

So basically, you have two series that sell because of their name. And you admit that the rest of JRPGs are nowhere near as successful. Doesn't this support my position? Western RPGs are more consistently successful than JRPGs, barring the two huge JRPG franchises that have been around for over two decades.

Exactly. And they want to sell games to the western market because that market is considerably larger than the Japanese market. In the past, Japanese publishers would only publish and develop Japanese games. Now it's growingly increasingly to common for them to reach out to the western audience by publishing western games and using western developers. This trend is only growing.

Historically, they generally sold better than they do now. Your whole argument essentially rests on three highly-established franchises. New fighting franchises traditionally don't do all that well and as such, publishers don't think it's worth trying to compete. That = unhealthy market.

Clones? I don't know about that. I do know that an unprecedented amount of western RPGs are making their ways to consoles, though. Risen, Divinity 2, Venetica, Dragon Age, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, etc. 10 years ago, the genre had essentially no presence on consoles, whereas fighting games were prominent. These days, it's the exact opposite. You're pretty dense if you can't see that.

Hell, it's pretty rare for even established platformer franchises to see new entries these days. Why? Because the genre isn't as popular as it used to be, which is what I've been saying this whole argument.

And other PC genres have transitioned entirely to consoles where they consistently sell better than console-centric genres, proving my correct point entirely.

If you'd actually read the thread, you'd see that this is what Beamer said: Consoles will survive quite fine without PCs, much like they always have. Considering that the console market is dominated by former PC developers and traditional PC genres and that publishers have little faith in traditional console genres like fighting games and platformers, I'd say that claim (as well as yours) has been proven patently false.

To prove me wrong, you'd have to change reality.

Simply adding Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy would probably kill every other franchise combination you can invent (thanks for pointing that out PCW).

None of the data referenced jives with what google turns up.

For the past 15 years there have been two large JRPG franchises and many many others that are nowhere near as big.

Newsflash, that's how the industry works. If you want to sell a game to a western market, it makes sense to use a western developer.

You're assuming all fighting games ever sold well in the first place when historically no they didnt.

How many western rpg clones did we see this year?

It's like arguing PC gaming is dead is because space sims aren't around anymore.

History lesson: no one gives a shit where something was born.

Entire PC genres have died out in the past ten years and yet the console market keeps moving on, disproving your retarded point entirely.

Too bad no one made that claim and that's not what this entire debate has been about.

You made false claims about genres you don't even play and were proven ignorant, that's what this is about.

You don't need to be psychic to make a reasonable prediction based on fact and logic. The western market is significantly larger than the Japanese market. As a result, western genres like shooters and RPGs typically outsell eastern genres by a fair margin.

Source?

Oh, what the hell, I'll do the research for you on VGChartz.

Right, right, my mistake. That's why Capcom outsourced Bionic Commando to GRIN. And why Konami has outsourced the last three Silent Hill games to western developers. And why Square is outsourcing Front Mission Evolved to a western developer. And why Resident Evil 4/5 have been turned into shooters, the most popular genre in western markets. And why Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is being outsourced to western developers and being turned into a God of War clone. And why Square published Order of War, a PC RTS for the western market.

Yes, all three of them. Street Fighter, Soul Caliber, Tekken and... oh, that's it? How many other fighting games are there? Logic time: The reason why developers around the world no longer pump out fighting games like they did in the 90's is because the genre simply isn't as popular as it once was. If you think that fact is retarded, I'm not sure what to say. Denial?

"Like" Ratchet and Clank?

*facepalm*

Way to miss the point, Vernie. History lesson: Shooters were born on the PC. If PC gaming never existed, there likely wouldn't be any shooters.

Therefore, shooters wouldn't be popular on consoles because shooters wouldn't exist. The biggest console developers all have PC roots. If there was no PC gaming, they probably would never have even entered the business.

To claim that the current state of console gaming hasn't been hugely influenced by PC gaming is downright retarded.

Yeah hang on let me pull out a calculator and predict the future.

Almost every title in my list sold over a million copies by the way.

No, Western publishers are focused on the western market *gasp*. Which is the way it's always been. Companies like Atlus, Square-Enix and so have always localized and brought titles over to NA/EU. Your lack of console knowledge is showing, might want to cover that up.

Your entire comment is retarded, all of the big fighting franchises are alive and still selling quite well.

Platformers have moved to the Wii mostly, there are still big name ones left like Ratchet and Clank as I already mentioned but you were too intent on making a point even though there is no evidence to support you.

There are no PC-centric genres anymore, consoles have taken them from you.

How many of those are coming to the US? How many will sell at least a million?

Conversely, let's look at the rising popularity of western RPGs: Oblivion, Fable 1&2, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, KOTOR... all sold well over a million copies.

n increasing number of PC-centric RPGs are also coming to consoles... Dragon Age, Risen, Divinity 2, Venetica, etc. You can argue that JRPGs are still popular in Japan but the fact is that Japan is a very small market and it is growing increasingly irrelevant these days.

Publishers are all focused on the western market and the western market loves shooters and western RPGs, two genres pioneered by the PC.

What does quality have to do with anything? We get dozens of shooters a year and maybe a couple are decent. That doesn't change the fact that they are more popular than fighting games.

Ah, so now we're counting budget titles. Let me rephrase: How many publishers are willing to invest large amounts of money into platformers? How many high profile platformers do we see a year? Conversely, how many shooters do we see? How profitable are the platformers compared to the shooters?

And that PC-centric genres like shooters aren't more prominent and profitable than console-centric genres like beat-em-ups and platformers?

Here's whats coming up next year alone:

Agarest - Generation of War (PS3 next week JPN)
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles (Wii Q4 2009)
Super Robot War Neo (Wii JP Q4 2009)
Star Ocean 4 FSE (PS3 Q1 2010)
White Knight Chronicles 2 (PS3 Q3 2010)
Final Fantasy 13 (PS3/360 Q1 2010)
Resonance of Fate (PS3/360 Q2 2010)
Atelier (PS3 Q3 2010 JPN, Q4 NA)
3D Dot Hero (PS3 ?? 2010)

When were there ever 10 great quality fighting games per year? There have always been what, 3-4 great fighting franchises period, all of them still running. (even shitty old Mortal Kombat has a next gen title)

A metric shit ton? The Wii alone must have like 30 platformers, not to mention the Ratchet & Clank games and so on. You don't play consoles so you don't see that much of that genre has moved onto XBLA and PSN nowadays.

There are plenty of them. Shooters are certainly the most popular genre at the moment but that's like saying there were no RPGs ten years ago just because a lot of people were playing Quake 2.

You know why I still use an 8800GTX? Because there isn't a fucking game available that needs anything more powerful.

Consoles have cannibalized PC gaming into total stagnation.