Dades wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 12:04:

FloorPie wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 05:25:
They tell me when I can get up, eat, go to work. The work camps here in Siberia are really great.

Yeah let's equate gun control and slavery, that's a reasonable debate

So which is it Dades? Do you believe responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished for a few loose cannons, or are you fine with giving up your rights and your 2nd amendment to make those on the left feel good about themselves?

No, you're not going to box me into a choice with only two extremes that you designed. You try to spin every issue into left vs right hysterics and that's not how I form my opinions.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

PHJF wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 09:22:

People who don't play violent video games don't see a problem with banning violent video games, and people who don't own firearms don't see a problem with banning firearms... Amazing how that works, isn't it?

You just equated tools for killing people with fictional, virtual entertainment. Amazing how that works.

Dades wrote on Jan 13, 2013, 01:20:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 23:14:
Actually car accidents were the leading cause of death I'm pretty sure, prolly should ban cars while we're at it too, and wrap everyone in bubblewrap just to be safe.

I'm pro-gun but you're making gun owners look bad with this kind of stupidity. Seriously don't do us any favors, just be quiet, we can take care of ourselves. Here is what anyone with a brain will rebutt that sound bite with: cars aren't designed to kill people, guns are. Most car deaths are accidents. You can't compare unlike statistics anyways, that's not how it works.

As a responsible gun owner I don't have any problem with gun control laws, I'd just point out that we already have many on the books and gun control isn't where the problem lies. Enforcement, guns in popular media and availability is the problem. There is no need to punish responsible gun owners and vendors for a minority problem that needs to be dealt with in other ways.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

Axis wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 20:32:
Disarming 99% of law abiding citizens against the 1% criminals who would get one anyway is not the answer. Go ask the Swiss.

Much of the problem is medication, lots of research out there but the liberal media wants to keep this about gun control - another 'excuse' it's not them or their actions, its the guns. Another 'lets pat ourselves on the back we did the first thing that comes to mind' it's the guns.

Almost every mass murder was done by someone who was seriously medicated either currently or shortly after stopping, and anyone who knows anything about these meds knows that the latter is the most dangerous part.

Go to any other country and you'll see a general aversion and reluctance to medicate and far less medical 'problems', especially when it comes to mental health.

America by FAR the most medicated country, it's absolutely ridiculous. Some medication is needed, but much is not. America has everything, the 'poor' in America have everything they need to live a good life and people medicate for shit like depression? Go to any of the low crime rate countries and ask how many get medicated for depression - ya a ridiculous notion.

Do you know that WATER fixes a shit ton of ailments and imbalances? Amazing, our bodies are mostly water and it's water that fixes them. But... water isn't profitable. Go do research, I might have just changed your life. I know mine was changed about 8 years ago armed with this information and a bug to find out more.

Anyways guns aren't the problem, it's a fact backed by all available research out there.

NewMaxx wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 22:50:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 22:47:
OMG TAKE ALL THE GUNZ!! and when death by knives go up. TAKE ALL THE KNIVZ!!! Or baseball bats, or metal pipes or <insert inanimate object here>

What was the statistic? Oh right...more people were killed last year by bludgeoning than guns in this country.

UttiniDaKilrJawa wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 22:32:
23 people die and the loudest noise out of all this is
"YOU CAN'T TAKE OUR GUNZ FROM US!!!!"

Days like this that make me sad the Mayans were wrong.

Cutter wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 20:20:

LittleMe wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 18:27:
Protip 2: People frequently vote for socialists. Socialists are also control freaks.

You wouldn't know a socialist if you were clubbed over the head with one until your tinfoil hat came off.

Beamer wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 18:45:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 16:19:
are other ways to treat mental health in a more positive manner, be it therapy, outreach programs, or devising better ways to keep those who are full on mental out of society in the first place. etc, rather than be pill subscription happy and sending these highly troubled people on their way to shooting up a school because they're not getting the proper help or diagnosis. Granted that might piss off the pharmaceutical companies however who have quite the lobbyists themselves however.

There's alot of other avenues to look at actually treating the symptoms rather than going after inanimate objects, in this case guns, or video games a a feel good band aid and something to lay the blame on.

But that isn't a solution. You still need to say who is going to come up with. Who will enforce it? What measures will there be? How will we know when pills are still right? How do you know pills aren't?

What you're doing is saying "the problem is some people are bad. If people decided not to be bad, we'd be ok." Great. Still not a solution.

Beamer wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 16:04:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 15:36:

Beamer wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 13:00:

WinterMadness wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 11:29:
All of you anti-gun people will be the FIRST ones to complain when the "gubmint" comes after something that you like that is deemed to be "harmful to society". Tthe erosion of freedom in our country sickens me, all in the name of "protecting the innocent". All of this uproar over assault weapons when the FBI crime statistics for 2011 showed 323 deaths by rifles in the USA and that is ALL types of rifles, not just AR's. There were 6220 deaths by handguns which will be the NEXT thing they come after once they have banned AR's. Then it will continue with whatever other weapon they deem is dangerous. Contrast that with Planned Parenthood releasing their statistics for 2011, 334,000 unborn babies killed but THAT's AOK with the loony left! Call us crazy but the real reason for the 2nd amendment was to prevent a tyrannical govt from taking ALL power away from the people, just read some of the founding father's writings on the subject. Wake the fuck up you morons,, you will be the reason we become a fascist nation. In closing, MOLON LABE, come take it motherfuckers...

Officially derailed by nonsense.

I dunno I don't think he's too far off, liberals are in an uproar about automatic weapons when there's about 100 times more deaths from handguns. So what comes after banning riffles and AR's when it doesn't affect anything? Easy, you'll go after handguns. Like I keep saying kneejerk reactions over one incident are just that, they don't solve anything.

I love how documented numbers are nonsense unless they support your side. librul logic

I meant the planned parenthood part. Comparing school shootings to abortions is pretty asinine.

I don't know, I don't recall having mentioned assault rifles here. I mentioned high capacity clips. Assault rifles seem somewhat moot, because they're still semi-automatic.

But it's standard for you - unable to actually parse arguments anyone makes, instead classifying them as "Liberal" or "Not Liberal," and if "Liberal" then "Argument = Piers Morgan." You're a riot. You're wholly unable to believe someone has points of view that don't match what other, larger, classified groups think.


And you STILL haven't offered a solution. You just say "mental health!" as if it's a solution. There's been zero critical thought coming from you. Identifying problems is something a first grader can do. Turning them into solutions is something a bit more problematic, and something you've yet to even offer.

Beamer wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 13:00:

WinterMadness wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 11:29:
All of you anti-gun people will be the FIRST ones to complain when the "gubmint" comes after something that you like that is deemed to be "harmful to society". Tthe erosion of freedom in our country sickens me, all in the name of "protecting the innocent". All of this uproar over assault weapons when the FBI crime statistics for 2011 showed 323 deaths by rifles in the USA and that is ALL types of rifles, not just AR's. There were 6220 deaths by handguns which will be the NEXT thing they come after once they have banned AR's. Then it will continue with whatever other weapon they deem is dangerous. Contrast that with Planned Parenthood releasing their statistics for 2011, 334,000 unborn babies killed but THAT's AOK with the loony left! Call us crazy but the real reason for the 2nd amendment was to prevent a tyrannical govt from taking ALL power away from the people, just read some of the founding father's writings on the subject. Wake the fuck up you morons,, you will be the reason we become a fascist nation. In closing, MOLON LABE, come take it motherfuckers...

Officially derailed by nonsense.

HorrorScope wrote on Jan 12, 2013, 12:24:

PropheT wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 21:34:

HorrorScope wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 20:00:
I'm ok if Hollywood, games and guns all were tamed some. Perhaps one without the others is unfair.

Why? And to what degree?
And who decides? And once it's decided...where does it stop?

Who's been deciding anything all along? Those people. Lawmakers, rating boards etc.

Why? In the name of just bettering ourselves.

Hey I've killed a billion pixels like the next guy, I don't need military level weaponry, and movies can ratchet it back some. I'm far from saying get rid of it all, but perhaps we can tame our savage side 5%, or something.

We've been refining ourselves since the start of time, this is just continuation of that.

nin wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 20:49:
Folding Volition and it's stable of games into DF would be divine...

StingingVelvet wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 19:39:
The simple fact is a dozen or more factors are involved in ever one of these tragedies and the politicians and media act like only one thing was the cause. That's never true.

Mental illness, gun access, competitive culture, selfish culture, bullying and yes, violent media, are all involved. Unless we are going to radically change our entire country though the un-political thing to say is, bluntly: cost of doing business.

Overall violent crime is way down.

Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 15:20:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 15:10:

Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 15:03:
Part of the problem is that RollinThundr feels the need to respond not to anyone here but to Piers Morgan. The only people I've ever seen even mention Piers Morgan, let alone pay attention to him, are gun advocates.

No one else is beating his drum, but RollinThundr responds to him, not to us.

translation: Well I can't debate what you're saying about mental health or attacks on the 2nd amendment from the left, so I'm going to personally attack you.

Same ol same ol from the usual suspects. Why not debate the full content of that post rather than taking one sentence out of it to toss out some personal attacks Beamer?

Jesus, dude. I agreed with you on the mental health issue. I just said we can't really do anything about it. I then asked you what you would do about it. You didn't answer. You just said "the mother shouldn't have had guns in the house with a mentally unstable boy." That isn't a proposed solution, it's a statement of fact.

I have agreed with your statement of fact that the mother probably shouldn't have had those guns
I have agreed with your statement of fact that mental illness is a cause of most (but not all) of these shootings.

I have not seen you turn "the real issue is mental illness" into a solution, though.

So... you are giving me nothing to debate. Instead you keep throwing out Piers Morgan. Only you mention him. No one here. Just you. No solutions from you, just talking points aimed at a celebrity that isn't here and no one here seems to support.

Should we ask Snooki what she thinks about guns?

Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 15:03:
Part of the problem is that RollinThundr feels the need to respond not to anyone here but to Piers Morgan. The only people I've ever seen even mention Piers Morgan, let alone pay attention to him, are gun advocates.

No one else is beating his drum, but RollinThundr responds to him, not to us.

Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:58:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:36:
300 million armed US citizens vs a corrupt political agency or takeover, I put my money on the US citizens

Assuming every man, woman, and child will enlist is perhaps a bit of a stretch. But maybe I'm just too cynical about a populace that can't even achieve 50% voter turnout in most years.

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:36:
People like to ignore the mental health aspect of it when it's a major reason these incidents are happening and solely blaming the NRA, videogames, the GOP, or guns themselves, that's both dishonest and illogical.

Agreed. I play videogames (including "violent" ones). I take Prozac for depression. And there's a gun in my house. In the 15 years those elements have coincided, I have yet to encounter any sort of desire to shoot up a school and/or movie theater, or kill random people I see.

Of course, treating unstable people like Lanza and Holmes as exceptions to the rule doesn't make for good ratings or sound bites.

sauron wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:40:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:18:
When you have those on the left like Piers Morgan claiming to respect the 2nd amendment, then in the same breath referring to the Constitution as "your little book"...

It's also interesting to me that the places where these incidents are taking place tend to have no carry laws already on the books and are generally majority democrat states.

Piers Morgan is actually a right-winger and widely reviled by the left wing media (and most everyone else). His problem isn't that he's a liberal, it's that he's British, which is almost as bad.

Your second paragraph linking gun incidents to Democrat states is offensive, wack-job, tinfoil hat bullshit and you should be ashamed of yourself. I sure as hell am.

Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:28:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:20:
Do you honestly think everyone in the armed forces would follow orders to kill their neighbors & loved ones just because a corrupt political element decided to seize control?

I don't. I prefer to believe that the hearts of our soldiers are the best check and balance against this sort of thing happening.

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:20:
Listen, I don't think this is probable, but saying "Oh it could never happen in the US lets ban guns" is naive.

I don't think guns should be banned. Everyone has the right to their own defense, and the police certainly aren't it. You're probably dead by the time they show up.

But this whole "the Second Amendment lets us revolt against the next Hitler/Stalin/Manchurian candidate" argument is ludicrous, and serves as nothing but a distraction from any true meaningful discussion on the matter of gun violence. The fact that it's the island of first resort for a non-trivial portion of the pro-gun side is disturbing.

Chairman Kaga wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 14:11:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:08:
You're missing the forest from the trees, a corrupt political faction in the US could push to become a totalitarian state, the only way they would succeed at that is to first strip US citizens of their guns. That's why the 2nd amendment is in place, to prevent that from ever happening.

And do you honestly think you, or any other cabal of armed insurrection, stand any sort of chance should the US decide to turn its current military power on its own citizens? Your pistols and shotguns against guys with M4s, body armor, drones, and cruise missiles. Let me know how that goes. Probably about as well as my last game of XCOM.

As much as I am with you on the heart and soul and purpose of the Second Amendment, one must also concede that it has been rendered obsolete by technological progress and economies of scale. We are already at the full mercy of this government, for better or worse.

The most dangerous people in America are these nutters like Alex Jones, which combine the fantasy of the Second Amendment in the modern age with the mental instability of rampant conspiracist thought.

Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 13:42:

RollinThundr wrote on Jan 11, 2013, 12:31:
Look at the list of people performing these shootings, most if not all of them were/are on medications and have mental disorders. So what's more rational, making knee jerk reactions calling for gun bans, rather than look at the symptoms of why these shootings are happening is like putting a bandaid on someone who's arm just got cut off with a chainsaw.

So what's your solution? Yes, most of them have been depressed and on medication. Obviously there's an issue there. Those that weren't on medication were likely just undiagnosed.

But what's your solution? How do you turn the knowledge that some depressed and medicated people buy guns and shoot up public places into stopping this from happening? Do you take the right to buy guns from these people? Well, it's a right, so that'd be difficult, the NRA would still oppose it, and many of them took guns someone else purchased, anyway. Do you lock these people up? Well, that seems easy to abuse and the vast majority of mentally ill people never go on murder sprees. Do you spend more on treatment? That doesn't help the undiagnosed, and I thought you opposed government spending? Our medical health institutions, which were fairly rotten to begin with, were all cut decades ago to decrease government spending.

What is your solution? There are only a few levers we're capable of pulling. Making acquiring guns more difficult seems to be a lever that would have an impact and is one we can easily pull. Can we get rid of all guns? No, and that'd be stupid, anyway. But can we make it more difficult for high capacity magazines to be acquired? Hell yeah.