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User information for S Westberg

Real Name S Westberg   
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Nickname Flatline
Email Concealed by request
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Homepage http://
Signed On Feb 15, 2007, 19:09
Total Comments 2018 (Senior)
User ID 34131
 
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News Comments > Saturday Interviews
41. Re: Saturday Interviews Oct 25, 2014, 22:44 Flatline
 
Also one more thing.

I'm tired of hearing how the Gamasutra article from Leigh Alexander hit the nail on the head. It's fundamentally flawed, and from that flaw flows hubris of a surprising degree.

Declaring that gaming enthusiast subculture is dead because gaming has gone mainstream is fucking idiotic. It makes as much sense as arguing that since dining out is mainstream that foodies are dead. That because music is mainstream that music enthusiasts are dead. That because movies are mainstream you can't be a film buff.

Bullshit. In fact exactly the opposite is usually the case. It's the sub-culture dedicated enthusiasts who drive the mainstream interest and encourage new and interesting developments in the field.

If you want to know what "mainstream gaming" looks like, it looks like endless Call of Duty clones, farmville, and candy crush saga. It's the Olive Garden of the restaurant industry. That's what this brave new post-gamer world looks like.

It's the enthusiasts who helped support and continue to support the indie game scene. It's the enthusiasts who push back against DRM and shitty industry policy. It's the enthusiasts who by word of mouth buck the trend of nearly zero coverage from the journalist press and spread, by word of mouth, knowledge of games worth playing.

It's the enthusiasts who justify the continued existence of the gaming journalism community too, because I promise you people like my mom doesn't read those sites. If gamers as a sub culture are dead, then these fuckwads can show their commitment to the argument and quit. Because without the people they're attacking, they have no career.

It doesn't take much thought to realize that the idea that gaming as a sub-culture is dead is a stupid, fundamentally flawed idea. But it does take hubris and massive ego to think that you're in a position where you can declare a cultural movement to be dead.

And let's be honest, none of the issues raised by Leigh, or Anita, or any of the current critics of gaming culture are illustrating *anything* new. In 2001 we had the jokes about how ugly and vicious and abusive the 12 year old kids playing Halo were on xbox voice chat. We had in 2004 Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. We joke about League of Legends voice chat causing mental trauma in how vicious it is. Ragequit is a cultural term everyone knows. And that's just in the toxicity part of the discussion. I can remember back to the first fucking Tomb Raider in the mid-90's the discussions about how sexist the industry was. I remember a tomb raider clone where the reviewer joked that the art department must have spent six months modeling the main character's breasts, because clearly the head model was an afterthought.

None of this shit is new. We've known about it and have talked about it for probably 20 years now. And they're real problems that need to be addressed and need to be fixed. But pretending like we've crossed some threshold of unsustainable fuckwadism all of a sudden while ignoring the entire toxic culture of the internet and of the furthering polarization of the world in general does a disservice to gaming.
 
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News Comments > Saturday Interviews
40. Re: Saturday Interviews Oct 25, 2014, 22:23 Flatline
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 25, 2014, 19:00:
Flatline, you misunderstand the argument. I'm not saying it us fact because the nyt says it. I say it is fact because popular opinion says so. Vastly, infinitely more people think it is about women than think it is about journalism.

That, and none of the discussions are ever about journalism.

Ah okay. So it's a textbook Argumentum ad populum fallacy instead. You're still in the wrong.

And also they get the analysis from... the very people that the other side is arguing is corrupt. If the ethics accusations actually are substantial, then you would absolutely expect the game journalists community to ignore the accusations totally and focus instead on a hot, emotional, clearly disgusting activity of a handful of extremists to keep the discussion off of their behavior.

Which is more or less what we're seeing. With the added benefit of clickbait driving to increase their revenue sources.
 
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News Comments > Saturday Interviews
26. Re: Saturday Interviews Oct 25, 2014, 18:55 Flatline
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 25, 2014, 18:07:
The NYT gets into it again, saying Gamergate looks much more like a campaign of harassment against women and it's disenheartening to see how many gamers support this and enjoy this.

To me, these anti-intellectual players, who want games to be “just games” and want criticism of them to be devoid of things like political and social context, are almost as worrisome as the horrifying, and criminal, actions of the harassers.

Ironically, most of those same people that want games to be "just games" were the same ones irate at Ebert for saying games weren't art.

This is in the NYT, the world's most read newspaper, in the Sunday Review section, one of their more popular.

To be fair, you just presented one of the shittiest Argument from Authority logical fallacies I've ever read, especially since the NYT isn't particularly an authority on video games or on the gaming subculture.

You might as well issue a statement from McDonalds and argue their statement is relevant because they sell more burgers than anyone else in the world.

I've learned all I need to learn from Gamergate: The games "journalism" industry is a joke, it's filled with axe-grinding completely unprofessional fuckwads with unjustified large egos, and getting involved with that profession is a stupid move that is only eclipsed by taking what they say seriously. Or even reading what they say at this point.

The Operation: Disprespectful Nod thing is pretty much the real "ethics" side of GG's front. And it's achieving fairly decent success.

Voting with your wallet is a good idea if you hate the idea of industry blacklisting and collusion. Pulling ad revenue and letting PR firms know you're abandoning the sites because you dislike how openly blatantly unprofessional they're being is a decent idea too. That's going to achieve far more than any amount of screaming, no matter how good your argument.
 
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News Comments > The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Trailer
13. Re: The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Trailer Oct 25, 2014, 18:37 Flatline
 
rjdriver wrote on Oct 25, 2014, 06:19:
Looks very intriguing. Wish they offered a first person view option.

Terrible idea.

How the fuck would you do first-person swordplay, Witcher style, that *didn't* have you puking up your guts from all the spinning and whirling around?
 
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News Comments > Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth Released
26. Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth Released Oct 24, 2014, 15:36 Flatline
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 24, 2014, 14:53:
Ah, mhh that is interesting In the let's plays I watched the AI factions were pretty forgettable. The AI still acted like in CIV5, it didn't really push conflicts properly etc.

Anyway, I didn't play it, I only saw let's plays. So if you guys notice something and correct me please do that. I just didn't get a very good first impression at all.

Maybe it's gonna be a good game with expansions. But it remains to be seen whether it even gets any.

Yeah I was surprised actually. The faction that did it was on really good friendly terms with me and had been for most of the game. I guess they advanced on the harmony affinity and decided I was killing their precious little grubs.

We'll see if that's a fluke or not. So far you're about right with the AI, it's not much changed, although one faction that I did have a declaration of friendship with sent a steady stream of soldiers to help contain the absolutely absurd amount of aliens that were besieging my civ without me asking. He was exploring, saw that a crapload of aliens were spawning around me and sent like 20 units to kill the fuck out of the aliens and then went off and left me on my own. Must have had the warrior culture path ramped up.

First time an alliance ever did that for me.

There's actually a lot of great ideas in the game I'd like to see pushed back to normal Civ, like the idea of favors. Instead of mooching off of you in normal Civ, if you don't have anything you want or you're hit up for charity you're offered favors in diplomatic trade to be cached in later. Which is actually kind of awesome. If they had that in Civ 5 it'd make the diplomacy game far more interesting to me.
 
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News Comments > NCSOFT Layoffs; Carbine Reportedly Loses 60+
19. Re: NCSOFT Layoffs; Carbine Reportedly Loses 60+ Oct 24, 2014, 15:27 Flatline
 
LittleMe wrote on Oct 24, 2014, 11:07:
I just wish it ran at 24fps instead of a smooth 120.

1. Open case
2. Aim hair dryer at graphics card.
3. Turn hair dryer onto hot
4. Play ESO
5. PROFIT!!!
 
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News Comments > Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth Released
20. Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth Released Oct 24, 2014, 14:49 Flatline
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 24, 2014, 11:24:
You won't get a angry letter that you just destroyed half the planets aliens...

Actually I had a faction demand I stop killing the native aliens in the first 2 hours of playing the game and waged war on me when I wouldn't (to be fair they kept acting aggressively).

We'll see how it holds up to longer term play sessions, but I'm enjoying it for now. I'm still a little overwhelmed by the iconography of the map but that'll adjust quickly enough.
 
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News Comments > NCSOFT Layoffs; Carbine Reportedly Loses 60+
11. Re: NCSOFT Layoffs; Carbine Reportedly Loses 60+ Oct 24, 2014, 00:07 Flatline
 
NKD wrote on Oct 23, 2014, 21:21:
ColoradoHoudini wrote on Oct 23, 2014, 20:45:
I am going to bet that EQ Next learns a HUGE lesson here, and doesnt make their next title nearly as exclusive to people.

EQ Next has been marketed as a fairly accessible player-driven sandbox title from it's announcement. As far as we know, it has basically zero focus on the traditional style of content. It's already the polar opposite of Wildstar.

Wildstar could have carved out a niche for itself as a raiding game, but they decided to gate their raids behind a lot of stupidity. There was an enormous brick wall at the end. A huge difficulty spike going from Adventures to Dungeons. Not to mention the timesink attunement process that was far more frustrating than anything WoW ever had.

People crave that difficult content, but they don't have 16 hours a day to play. Get rid of the grinds, keep the difficulty tuning. But it's too late for Wildstar at this point.

How sad. I enjoyed Wildstar quite a bit. The moment-to-moment gameplay was fun. I quit after 2 months though when I couldn't find a decent casual guild to join and my friends never got online when I did. Which is the fate of me and all MMOs.
 
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News Comments > etc., etc.
34. Re: etc., etc. Oct 22, 2014, 12:14 Flatline
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 12:09:
Flatline wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 11:34:
Beamer wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 11:18:
These issues, of discussing employees with other potential employers, do happen everywhere. Again, I don't find this some smoking gun that the chat room was evil and unethical.

Again, go into those journalist bars and you'll see editors sitting around and, yes, they'll be discussing problems with employees. Some may be stupid and use names.

But said journalists are not stupid enough to write the shit down. And I'm sure if you pulled out a tape recorder they'd clam the fuck up. Yeah sure, there's collusion all the time, and it's a pissoff, but without proof what can you do right?

These asshats documented the proof themselves. They deserve no pity for being so... I dunno if it's stupid or egotistical or short-sighted as to document basically confessions of wrongdoing.

When someone brags on facebook that they robbed a house and the police nail them for it we don't say "but there's burglaries all the time so what's the big deal?"

We laugh at them for being idiots and ignoring common sense.

Journalists are absolutely stupid.
But, c'mon, these aren't journalists, these are people telling you how much the Season Pass for Borderlands 3 will cost.

That I will absolutely agree on. They're editorialists that are bordering on tabloid publication.

Actually, their behavior makes a hell of a lot more sense when you look at them like the bitchy celebrity gossip columnist.
 
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News Comments > Free & Paid Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor DLC
11. Re: Free & Paid Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor DLC Oct 22, 2014, 11:54 Flatline
 
InBlack wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 02:18:
The game has grown on me the more Ive played it. I might even finish it now heh. I like that you can specialize. The Nemesis system is fairly gimmicky, Im thinking there is something missing there but its fun to just run around slaughtering Orcs in their hundreds.

The Nemesis system feels gimmicky I think because of the random buffs that get assigned to the Uruks. If I had died more I would have seen it more, but after the first third of the game I almost never died, so my "nemesis" at the end was some random dude I think I died once to but never got around to actually killing because the story didn't require it. I one-shotted him at that point and that was the end of my nemesis. By the time I took on the war chiefs in the 2nd area the entire Uruk chief system was branded and under my control. Made the warchiefs way too easy. In the end I had all of them branded too.

What killed it for me (besides shitty controls on the PC that I had to remap to not hurt my hands) was the second area uruks that had stealth invulnerability, ranged invulnerability, and then immune to either combat finishers or normal attacks. I fought like six of those Uruks and they were so fucking boring. Attack the crowd of mooks until I got a finisher. Finisher on chief. Repeat 4 times until you can kill the chief.

Once I got the ability to brand the uruks were bullshit. Immune to range, stealth, normal combat, you can't flip over them, combat finishers don't work, etc etc... I guess I was supposed to lure them into a trap with their fears to overcome it. But instead I just would attack until I could combat brand, then control one or two uruks every 5 blows. After about 3 minutes there's like 12 mind controlled mooks circling the chief, and half of them are backstabbing.

Oh and the ending/boss fight was fucking atrocious.

Meh. I'd give it a 6.5 overall, maybe an optimistic 7.
 
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News Comments > Metallica to Close BlizzCon
32. Re: Metallica to Close BlizzCon Oct 22, 2014, 11:41 Flatline
 
Jonjonz wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 07:54:
WOW, Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot. Booking a schlock rock band that poses as hard metal is pretty noobish. What's next, Winger?

Actually if I had to characterize the current Blizzard as a rock band, I'd be hard pressed to do better than Metallica, a group that did important, if dated work 20 years ago but has been coasting on the memory of their talent and the ocean of money they made.
 
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News Comments > etc., etc.
32. Re: etc., etc. Oct 22, 2014, 11:34 Flatline
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 11:18:
These issues, of discussing employees with other potential employers, do happen everywhere. Again, I don't find this some smoking gun that the chat room was evil and unethical.

Again, go into those journalist bars and you'll see editors sitting around and, yes, they'll be discussing problems with employees. Some may be stupid and use names.

But said journalists are not stupid enough to write the shit down. And I'm sure if you pulled out a tape recorder they'd clam the fuck up. Yeah sure, there's collusion all the time, and it's a pissoff, but without proof what can you do right?

These asshats documented the proof themselves. They deserve no pity for being so... I dunno if it's stupid or egotistical or short-sighted as to document basically confessions of wrongdoing.

When someone brags on facebook that they robbed a house and the police nail them for it we don't say "but there's burglaries all the time so what's the big deal?"

We laugh at them for being idiots and ignoring common sense.
 
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News Comments > etc., etc.
31. Re: etc., etc. Oct 22, 2014, 11:29 Flatline
 
Squirmer wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 03:57:
Prez wrote on Oct 22, 2014, 00:59:
If it were found that journos from USAToday, CNN, MSNBC, and other mainstream media outlest were colluding about which stories to run and which to ignore, as well as which journos to not hire, it would be a big scandal, worthy of lead stories for quite a while. It may or may not actually be going on but outing it would be HUGE. Colluding to deceive and colluding to blacklist people is not sitting down to drinks after work.
Well yeah, but I don't know if you're characterizing the Pinsof thing accurately there. The Destructoid editor initially sought advice from his peers, which of course happens all the time in all fields, and things got uglier later. I don't know if there's enough to call it blacklisting -- I think a court would be hard pressed to call it that -- but threats to change his byline were really shitty.

In any case, I have no doubt at all that those mainstream journalists having drinks together bitch and moan about their other colleagues on a regular basis. (And you can replace "journalist" with literally any other profession.)

You know what? I'm part of multiple groups that discuss IT, sometimes rather specific problems, sometimes making fun of ID10T errors in our job.

But I *never* namedrop. I intentionally scrub my posts of anything that could be considered identifying. I don't even name my employer, or any employer that is still in business that I worked for in the last 10 years.

And if I namedrop or mention a previous employer, I certainly don't do it in a written format that is archived for all eternity for anyone to review.

And I'm not alone. Lots of people on this board work in the video game industry and to my knowledge with few exceptions do they namedrop or be specific about individuals or even employers. And again, I'm sure if they ever do get specific, it's not IN WRITING. Which is admissible in court. If I have a drink with you and bitch my former boss out by name, and that goes to court, it's your word vs mine and it's not particularly strong evidence. But if I have allegations in writing that's a whole other story.

So yes, lots of industry groups form ad hoc to talk/bitch about business. But they don't fucking document it all for perusal at some point in the future and most people with three brain cells to rub together don't namedrop.

And if you think a court would be hard pressed to find at least defamation of character if not blacklisting, I'd like to know what blacklisting looks like in your realm of existence.

Here, I'll quote California law (from TFA) about blacklisting:

"Nothing in this chapter shall prevent an employer or an agent, employee, superintendent or manager thereof from furnishing, upon special request therefor, a truthful statement concerning the reason for the discharge of an employee or why an employee voluntarily left the service of the employer. If such statement furnishes any mark, sign, or other means conveying information different from that expressed by words therein, such fact, or the fact that such statement or other means of furnishing information was given without a special request therefor is prima facie evidence of a violation of sections 1050 to 1053."

Italicized for emphasis on what's important here.

In other words, when the editor went onto the email list and posted "Don't hire this guy he's an asshole that's why we fired him", he broke California law. When the owner namedropped the guy to the rest of the industry (read: prospective employers) and explained why he wanted to fire him/why he did fire him, *he* broke the law too.

And if you want to split hairs about it being on a private list, if you read that blog article, the owner of Destructoid did it previously, and publicly, by discussing why he let go Holly Green, which is a violation of CA law (where Destructoid is apparently based). He further arguably committed defamation of character by essentially saying "Bitch be crazy yo!"

So not only is it about as textbook of an act as you can get, you have public record showing that for the owner of Destructoid at least, there is a public historical pattern of this shit. Which means that it's institutional in that company, which probably opens up even more lawsuits if one wished to be particularly litigious.

Not to mention that apparently because of this Holly Green thing the owner publicly stated that they amended their code of conduct to say that if you're an employee things that you say in front of an audience basically come from Destructoid, he's now tied his own behavior officially into the company's point of view if he worded his code of ethics/behavior poorly. Which considering how fucking terrible this guy seems to be at covering his ass, I wouldn't be surprised to hear at all.

I don't even care why this Pinsof dude got canned. I might have canned him for him going off the reservation and doing a Twitter rampage. I don't know. But I do know everything after that is a bad problem. If Destructiod doesn't end up in litigation, this Niero dude needs to kiss Pinsof's feet for having more charity than most people I know.
 
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News Comments > etc., etc.
15. Re: etc., etc. Oct 21, 2014, 23:31 Flatline
 
Prez wrote on Oct 21, 2014, 21:52:
I see nothing wrong with exposing a scammer; I wouldn't have fired him.

Officially the dude's boss "suggested strongly" in email not to leak the identification of the scammer. I guess that happened on twitter and the editor got his panties in a bunch, fired him via email, then said "but don't post on twitter any more because things could change", which the guy said "fuck that I'm fired" and went off full-bore. At which point his ex boss said "well I gave you multiple orders to stay off twitter and you blew me off so you're fired".

It's a class 5 clusterfuck.
 
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News Comments > etc., etc.
14. Re: etc., etc. Oct 21, 2014, 23:27 Flatline
 
NKD wrote on Oct 21, 2014, 20:04:
Anyway, bottom line is Mr. Pinsof got fired and it appears that Dale North, Destructoid Editor-in-chief, may well have acted illegally when suggesting on the Game Journo Pros mailing list that other employers not hire Mr. Pinsof. There are laws in many states that make it illegal to "blacklist" potential employees in this way, and you open yourself up to huge liability.


Yeah, the idea that he was fishing for advice from other professionals goes out the window when he namedrops and the pack starts making fun of the employee. It's basically a smoking gun. After the fact when the guy got on the list and encouraged other people not to hire him, well... that's even worse.

Threatening to replace the byline on all previous work still on destructoid with "worst employee ever do not hire" just digs you deeper and deeper.

Any competent lawyer should be able to squeeze Destructoid for quite a bit of money in a nice settlement.

It also kind of shoots the idea that gamejournopros isn't a list that occasionally embarks on collusion in the foot.

It was also the point where I found myself thinking that the entire fucking industry is full of toxic egotistical assholes that have axes to grind that I wouldn't get involved with for any amount of money or privilege.

Edit- And this is why, after reading the blog entry, why you turn this shit over to HR. It's their responsibility to handle this shit with any kind of finesse.

This comment was edited on Oct 21, 2014, 23:44.
 
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News Comments > Metallica to Close BlizzCon
29. Re: Metallica to Close BlizzCon Oct 21, 2014, 23:06 Flatline
 
panbient wrote on Oct 21, 2014, 18:47:
Prez wrote on Oct 21, 2014, 16:58:
Off topic but Death Magnetic was far and away the best thing they had put out since ...And Justice For All. Had they actually made the guitars sound less like they were played through a $75 Gorilla amp, it would have almost been on the level with their epic 3...

Did you happen to download the uncompressed version of the album from Guitar Hero? I know it seems ridiculous but it sounds substantially better than the actual disc released for commercial sale.

Death Magnetic was such a horribly mixed album that the sound engineer apologized and disassociated himself from it. It was part of the "louder is better" movement for a while there and when you look at the sound graph of the CD vs the Guitar Hero mix, it's insane how much of a difference there is.

Metallica however still sucks. The old Metallica that was good is... dated. It didn't age very well. Everything post Black Album was too commercial to be relevant.
 
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News Comments > Play Civilization V Free This Week
17. Re: Bah! Oct 21, 2014, 11:23 Flatline
 
GMG just sent me my Beyond Earth key. I figured it was worth it at like 25% off. I"ll get my money's worth.

AC was my favorite game of the series so I'm interested in seeing where this goes.
 
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News Comments > Morning Interviews
18. Re: Morning Interviews Oct 20, 2014, 16:10 Flatline
 
MDB wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 15:21:
Flatline wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 13:01:
Not only is disparaging someone for not being a true gamer because they started when Halo came out a No True Scotsman fallacy, but it's especially lazy because as it turns out, Halo is pretty fucking old. You might as well push the threshold back into the 70's with THAC0, or even into the late 60's with the Grognard/wargame crowd that probably first popularized the term "gamer" in a social context outside of gambling.

Point taken -- bad choice of words on my part. (Maybe I should have said Farmville instead?)

To clarify, I was commenting on the way the "controversy", such as it is, has entered the consciousness of people who aren't involved in it, have nothing to do with it, aren't affected by it at all, and probably have more important things to worry about. Especially when said controversy is ultimately just a bunch of (presumably young and unwise) people typing stuff on their keyboards -- it's alternately silly and sad.

No worries. If we're going for the horror factor we could always point at the Kim Kardashian You Wish You Were Me game or whatever it's called.

Also, 'grats all around on the extreme civility of the thread.

Cheers!
 
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News Comments > Morning Interviews
12. Re: Morning Interviews Oct 20, 2014, 13:31 Flatline
 
UHD wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 13:24:
Flatline wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 13:01:
UHD wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 12:12:
Flatline wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 12:07:
I'm only vaguely inclined to let someone who can still calculate THAC0 in their head for a level 7 rogue call themselves a "gamer".

PS: 18

I am sure they are disappointed you're only vaguely inclined to let them into the gamer clique.

Er... that was a joke. Considering that arguably modern "gaming" as we consider it is around 30-35 years old tops (Depending on if you hitch the modern gamer tag to the old Atari/coleco/pong consoles or if you go with the NES/PC/Apple II era, and I'm more inclined to hitch it to the latter than the former) then bitching that someone who got their gaming start with Halo is a little bit disingenuous, since Halo came out nearly 13 years ago (November 11th, 2001).

To put it another way, in like 3-4 years, someone who started gaming when Halo came out will have been playing video games for the majority of the time that video games have been a cultural thing.

Not only is disparaging someone for not being a true gamer because they started when Halo came out a No True Scotsman fallacy, but it's especially lazy because as it turns out, Halo is pretty fucking old. You might as well push the threshold back into the 70's with THAC0, or even into the late 60's with the Grognard/wargame crowd that probably first popularized the term "gamer" in a social context outside of gambling.

Eh, it was tongue in cheek; some people actually think 'gamer' is some kind of badge of honor. Those people are silly. Apologies.

Gotcha. No apologies needed! My own post was intentionally pompous and probably could have been elaborated. Poe's law right?
 
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News Comments > Morning Interviews
8. Re: Morning Interviews Oct 20, 2014, 13:01 Flatline
 
UHD wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 12:12:
Flatline wrote on Oct 20, 2014, 12:07:
I'm only vaguely inclined to let someone who can still calculate THAC0 in their head for a level 7 rogue call themselves a "gamer".

PS: 18

I am sure they are disappointed you're only vaguely inclined to let them into the gamer clique.


Er... that was a joke. Considering that arguably modern "gaming" as we consider it is around 30-35 years old tops (Depending on if you hitch the modern gamer tag to the old Atari/coleco/pong consoles or if you go with the NES/PC/Apple II era, and I'm more inclined to hitch it to the latter than the former) then bitching that someone who got their gaming start with Halo is a little bit disingenuous, since Halo came out nearly 13 years ago (November 11th, 2001).

To put it another way, in like 3-4 years, someone who started gaming when Halo came out will have been playing video games for the majority of the time that video games have been a cultural thing.

Not only is disparaging someone for not being a true gamer because they started when Halo came out a No True Scotsman fallacy, but it's especially lazy because as it turns out, Halo is pretty fucking old. You might as well push the threshold back into the 70's with THAC0, or even into the late 60's with the Grognard/wargame crowd that probably first popularized the term "gamer" in a social context outside of gambling.
 
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