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User information for Jerykk

Real Name Jerykk   
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Nickname Jerykk
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Signed On Apr 23, 2004, 02:42
Total Comments 14087 (Ninja)
User ID 20715
 
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News Comments > Report: Ghost Games Layoffs Halt New NFS
6. Re: Report: Ghost Games Layoffs Halt New NFS Feb 1, 2014, 23:21 Jerykk
 
Maybe this means that EA will stop pumping out NFS games on a yearly basis? I used to really enjoy the series but I've felt complete apathy towards it over the past few years.  
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News Comments > Remember Me Developer Bankrupt
11. Re: Remember Me Developer Bankrupt Jan 31, 2014, 12:28 Jerykk
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 12:18:
Zyrxil wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 11:45:
necrosis wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 11:01:
Acleacius wrote on Jan 31, 2014, 09:27:
Best of luck, it sounded like a great story and premise, dragged down by crappy console gameplay design.

What I read, you need a controller to play otherwise get ready to be frustrated. Since I don't use a controller ... ever, there's no way I'm paying more than $5 or $10 bucks for poorly designed controls. There's a enough frustration in the world, without paying someone to frustrate me.
I will second this. Got it on PC at launch and the the fighting later in the game is maddening with KB&M.

How is it maddening? It's a 2 button light/heavy attack scheme. It's hardly the most complex of combat systems.

Anyway, the game is pretty much a boredom sandwich of terrible gameplay with (rare) really cool memory remix sequences.

It was maddening because they give you all these combos that you cannot pull off without being interrupted by being attacked. You basically have to keep hitting light attack forever. It wasn't like Batman where you can work things into a continuous attack pattern by throwing in counters. (Although I find the Arkham combat boring as shit too.)

That's not really true at all. As in Arkham, positioning and crowd control is key. Separating and/or stunning your enemies so you have time to beat up individual ones is how you pull off the longer combos.

For what it's worth, I didn't think Remember Me was that bad. The combat and traversal were pretty mediocre but the setting was interesting and the memory remixes were interesting. For $10, the game is definitely worth a look.
 
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News Comments > On Sale
11. Re: On Sale Jan 30, 2014, 23:20 Jerykk
 
Blacklist is great. Probably the second best SC game (after Chaos Theory).  
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News Comments > Spicy Horse Downsizes Due to Akaneiro Debt
14. Re: Spicy Horse Downsizes Due to Akaneiro Debt Jan 30, 2014, 01:47 Jerykk
 
Seems like bad management. Not sure they went from needing $200k to $2 million. If they hadn't exceeded their budget, they would have made $300k in profit. Not fantastic but better than being in debt for $1.7 million.  
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News Comments > BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea Episode Two Trailer
2. Re: BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea Episode Two Trailer Jan 28, 2014, 23:48 Jerykk
 
Atlas was an actual character? I thought he was just an alias that Fontaine used to rally the people against Ryan.  
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News Comments > Shadowrun: Dragonfall Delayed; Preorders Underway
10. Re: Shadowrun: Dragonfall Delayed; Preorders Underway Jan 28, 2014, 23:46 Jerykk
 
Shamans felt underpowered in the OC. Summons were expensive consumables that had a high risk of either escaping or going berzerk, making them a last resort in most battles.  
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
87. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 28, 2014, 23:36 Jerykk
 
And you are focusing on "sales and budgets" which is not he point, but rather that DayZ mod massively increased the sales of Arma 2, generating them a lot of revenue to use to develop the stand-alone. A ballpark estimate is easy enough to figure out, and considering a lot of work had already been done on the mod for free...there was a large jumping off point, which they clearly have failed to take advantage of.
But you have no way to refute this, so you attack one meaningless statement instead of the real fact of the matter...which you tend to do a lot of around here.

You seem to be forgetting the existence of ArmA3, which had the highest production values of any BiS game yet. Any profits they made from ArmA2 likely went towards ArmA3.

Also, you can't argue that sales and budgets are beside the point when the point revolves around those very things. You're assuming that BiS has enough money to fund DayZ without resorting to Early Access but you can't make that assumption unless you know how profitable ArmA2 and ArmA3 were. Neither budget nor lifetime sales are publicly available for either game so you really aren't qualified to make any assumptions about their profitability.

I'll say it one last time, there are benefits and downsides to the program. A lot of people seem to be willing to completely dismiss the downsides with the argument that the customer was warned. Changes need to be made to keep the companies accountable.

Nobody is dismissing the downsides of Early Access. They've all been recognized in this thread. What we've been dismissing is your claim that Early Access needs to change because you don't like it. If it does indeed need to change, the market will make it change. Consumers ultimately decide what succeeds and fails. If EA and Ubisoft try to exploit Early Access by releasing shitty, broken games, consumers will not buy said games. If too many Early Access games are never finished or improved, customers will lose faith in the system and stop supporting it. Change will occur naturally.

This comment was edited on Jan 28, 2014, 23:43.
 
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News Comments > Steamships Ahoy - Broken Age Act I
14. Re: Steamships Ahoy - Broken Age Act I Jan 28, 2014, 23:24 Jerykk
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 28, 2014, 16:23:
Just goes to show you dudes have somehow lost common sense simply because it's a Tim Schafter game.... maybe if you guys played recent Point and Clicks you'd have some bearings left to see this for what it is, a mediocre 4 hour game with lame puzzles.

Whispered World or Memoria are light years ahead of this. Memoria especially. Meh.

Maybe I am the only one who expected MUCH more?

I didn't think it was mediocre at all. The puzzles were easy, yes, but the writing, voice acting and art were all top-notch. Schafer has said that the puzzles will be harder in Act 2, which should address the only real issue I had with the first act.

For what it's worth, I beat the first act in 3 hours and that was with me trying out random interactions just to see what the characters would say. If the second act is the same length, that's a 6 hour game for $15. Not too bad.

If you paid more than the minimum required to get the game, that means you were willingly paying for more than just the game. I do agree that the Steam price is a bit high, though.
 
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News Comments > Thief Previews; Videos
35. Re: Thief Previews; Videos Jan 28, 2014, 01:41 Jerykk
 
Then we both have a different definition of a game being on rails (maybe "on rails" is a wrong choice of words, but what I mean to say is perfectly clear so let's not get stuck on semantics). To me, THIEF is on rails because there's no question/"illusion" whatsoever that you can only do what the devs tell you to. Sure, the devs give you multiple choices, but you cannot -- in any way! -- solve an obstacle in such a way the devs would be like "What the hell? Even we didn't think of that!". Have you played DX:HR with the dev commentary? I have. From start to finish. Apparantly there were allot of moments where the devs were saying almost exactly that.

I never encountered any genuinely emergent gameplay in any of the Thief games. It was always pretty clear that I was doing what the designers intended because the game's systems were never flexible enough to allow me to do otherwise. In DX, the emergent gameplay stemmed primarily from your strength & jump augmentations combined with your ability to pick up and move objects. Thief never had any such systems, meaning you were always limited to the options the designers created for you. The presence of manual jumping didn't change that which is why I don't think its absence is problematic in the new game.

Also, it's a bit silly to assume that emergent gameplay can only occur as a result of manual jumping. THIEF still has the AI, light/shadow and sound systems of the original games and it's conceivable that some random interaction could cause the AI to act in an unexpected way. We'll have to wait and see. I'm pretty sure that it, much like its predecessors, won't have even remotely as much emergent gameplay as DX.
 
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
78. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 12:33 Jerykk
 
Krovven wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 06:42:
Really Jerykk, I know you aren't stupid...are you just being obtuse on purpose? You don't need to see DayZ development budgets or Arma budgets, or sales figures to see how much DayZ has influenced sales of Arma 2. And if you think BIS has big budgets, you are off your rocker. If they had money they (theoretically) would make better and less buggy pieces of shit games. If they had spent any money on the stand-alone development, it wouldn't have taken them well over a year to get to the point they are now (which is still behind the mod) in development, with no end in sight. Most companies that spend millions upon millions of dollars on game development are frivolous with the money. I've been in one of those companies, I've seen it first hand.

Plenty of these stories out there about how Arma2 sales saw massive increases (to a 3 year old game) after the release of the DayZ mod.

Arma2 Server list majority running DayZ.

Credited for selling over 300,000 copies of Arma 2 in DayZ's first 2 months of release. I see you had linked the same story earlier...what you failed to note was that it was just regarding the first two months after release, not total sales for the last 2 years. That article was written 2 months after the release of the mod.

Not enough? How about this one...

Most of these stories are approaching 2 years old at this point. http://dayzmod.com/ 1,737,741 Unique Players. Do the math.

Those are nice links but none of them provide what I asked for. That is, specific figures for the budgets of ArmA2/Arma3/DayZ. Or even sales figures for ArmA3. As for ArmA2, can you provide any links for its lifetime sales? From what I've read, the DayZ mod boosted its sales by 500% so I can only assume that it didn't sell super well before that.

Anyway, I totally agree that DayZ had a huge impact on ArmA2's sales. That's why I never argued otherwise. Similarly, DayZ Standalone has had a huge impact on BiS's ability to fund their games. DayZ will likely be their most polished game yet, thanks to Early Access.

You're just the pot calling the kettle black... A game being buggy or incomplete doesn't mean it's automatically impossible to enjoy playing it. More PC gamers enjoy playing DayZ RIGHT NOW, despite the bugs and missing features, than they enjoy playing Assassin's Creed IV, Call of Duty: Ghost, Payday 2, and many other new "finished and bug-free" games.

This. The million+ people currently playing DayZ are enjoying the experience despite the bugs and missing features.

I mean, really, what exactly is the issue here? Bohemia has a history of releasing buggy and unpolished games anyway, probably because they had to release them prematurely in order to start generating revenue. It's not any different with DayZ, except they warn you that the game is buggy and incomplete. I can think of a number of games that would have benefit from being in Early Access (X: Rebirth immediately comes to mind) before their official release.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 12:43.
 
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
55. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 05:46 Jerykk
 
Yep, Google. You have fingers, use them.

I did. All I could find was the 300k sales figure for ArmA2. No development budgets for either ArmA 3 or DayZ. No sales figures for ArmA 3 either. Maybe I'm just bad at Googling. Can you share your links that have these numbers, please?

Thousands of game companies have managed to get funding from other sources for 30 years prior to the invent of Early Access. As I've already shown, companies like Ubisoft and BIS already have the money to fund the development of their games without needing the drip feed from Early Access sales.

Yes, those sources were called publishers. Indies have put out games too, though none with the same scope, complexity and production values of Bohemia's games. Development costs are only rising and I'm pretty sure ArmA3 hasn't even become profitable yet. Hell, if it weren't for DayZ, I'd be surprised if Bohemia was still around.

Also, you really need to stop putting Ubisoft and BiS in the same sentence. When you do that, you are implying that they are equally capable of funding games. That couldn't be further from the truth. There's a reason why Ubisoft is disappointed when Splinter Cell: Blacklist sells 2 million units, whereas BiS issues multiple celebratory press releases when DayZ sells 1 million.

There are definitely some benefits for Early Access...there are a lot of negatives as well, but you seem to want to turn a blind eye to them.

I believe I already pointed out the negatives. There is definitely a risk for consumers in that there's no guarantee of quality or even that the games will be finished. But again, these risks are made readily apparent by simply reading the Early Access warnings on the store pages.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 05:55.
 
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News Comments > Thief Previews; Videos
33. Re: Thief Previews; Videos Jan 27, 2014, 04:01 Jerykk
 
Out of curiousity: Why? Why do you prefer it?

Because I like having more control over my character. However, I can recognize when that control (or lack thereof) has a meaningful impact on gameplay. If the traversal system is as flexible as the previews seem to suggest, the lack of manual jumping will not have a significant impact on the new Thief. It will not mean you are "on rails," as that's a matter of level design, not controls. As far as I can tell, the levels are open-ended which is the exact opposite of "on rails."

The truth is, other people have different opinions of what they expect in a quality PC game, and they don't necessarily jibe with yours. When we voice those ideas, it seems impossible for you accept that they are anything but "minor nitpicks", "absurd conclusions", and "faulty logic", and you feel the need to weigh in with a "correct" perspective.

I'm sorry but your arguments are usually illogical. For example, claiming that the lack of manual jumping is due to consoles doesn't even make sense, given how many console games have manual jumping. Hell, the last Thief game had manual jumping and the game was clearly designed for Xbox. Claiming that button prompts dumb down the game is equally silly, given that you can disable them and that the functionality remains the same regardless of whether or not you can see a prompt.

What your arguments essentially boil down to is "new games aren't exactly the same as old games so they must be worthless pieces of crap." If that's what you genuinely believe, go ahead. Just don't expect me to sit by and let you spout your nonsense without any sort of rebuttal.

This comment was edited on Jan 27, 2014, 04:09.
 
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
52. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 03:43 Jerykk
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 01:59:
StaticRandomNumber wrote on Jan 27, 2014, 00:16:
People paid $50 for Battlefield 4, think DayZ may not be as pretty but has more polish in terms of stability.

Trollbait +10

It's not really trollbait. BF4 was broken at launch, remained broken for weeks (months for some customers) and, unlike Early Access games, gave no warning of this to customers. The DayZ store page gives tons of warnings that the game is buggy and unfinished. DayZ also costs half as much as BF4.
 
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
46. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 27, 2014, 01:37 Jerykk
 
When it comes to BIS and DayZ, they sold a shit ton of Arma 2 based on the DayZ mod alone, that they never would have sold otherwise. From what I recall, the sales figures are more than easily enough to have funded both Arma 3 and the stand alone DayZ without them having to do Early Access and bleed more money from people.

You have a source for these sales figures and the development budgets of ArmA3 and DayZ? I feel like you're greatly underestimating how expensive games are to make.

According to this, ArmA2 sold a little over 300k with the help of the DayZ mod. Before the mod, they likely sold half as many units, if even that.

Your opinion. Not a fact. There are people that thought micro-transactions would be good for games too...

Except my opinion actually has a logical basis. Microtransactions don't provide revenue during development nor do they offer useful player feedback. Microtransactions exist solely to generate revenue without requiring any new content.

Personally I think if they want testing and feedback from the public, the alpha/betas should be free and only charge for preorder a couple months before official release as preorders. OR, allow full refunds on these games up until they are officially released (maybe they already do)...just as Valve already gives refunds on pre-order games.

But then the benefit of generating revenue during development would be lost. Without this revenue, development suffers because the developers can't afford to hire more people or are forced to work other jobs to pay the bills. In this respect, Early Access is a great alternative to publishers. Instead of designing a game for a bunch of suits, you get to design a game for your actual customers. Are there risks? Sure. But customers are made well aware of these risks before they spend any money.
 
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
42. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 26, 2014, 22:25 Jerykk
 
Quboid wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 19:06:
Jerykk wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 17:07:
I think the real issue is that the finished games are less interesting than the Early Access ones. If DayZ or Rust were finished, they'd still be topping the charts.

That's partly because finished games have to actually implement the features they promise. Day Z would surely sell well and maybe Rust would too but I think they and other Early Access games benefit from being able to say in response to any criticism "well, it's not finished, that will improve". Every game looks good when all the bad stuff can be hyped away.

Except these games are selling based on word of mouth, not their store descriptions. Word of mouth is the result of people playing the games. People here may not enjoy DayZ or Rust but obviously there are a lot of people who do, regardless of how incomplete those experiences may be.

Personally, I don't agree with the Early Access policies as they are now and take even greater issue with Early Access games going "on sale". It's one thing to back games on Kickstarter that would have otherwise never been made; versus companies like BIS and Ubisoft that have money to properly develop their games milking Early Access to fund development.

Ubisoft and BiS aren't even remotely comparable. Prior to DayZ, the ArmA series was the only meaningful source of revenue for the company and even then it only made them enough money to keep the studio alive. Unlike Ubisoft and other big publishers, BiS doesn't have 20+ million dollars lying around to just throw at any given project.

Ultimately, Early Access makes games better. The early revenue stream allows the developers to expand and/or dedicate themselves to the project full-time and player feedback ensures that they stay on the right track. If you don't approve of buying unfinished games, simply wait until the games are finished. You'll reap the benefits of Early Access without taking any of the risks.

This comment was edited on Jan 26, 2014, 22:42.
 
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News Comments > Thief Previews; Videos
30. Re: Thief Previews; Videos Jan 26, 2014, 17:29 Jerykk
 
Ray Marden wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 07:37:
Jerykk,

Eurogamer is not the only outlet to talk about noteworthy shortcomings or outright negative things about this game. Rev 3 Games, Weekend Confirmed, Giant Bombcast, IGN podcasts, EpicBattleAxe, etc.

Prior to making my earlier post, I did watch the Eurogamer video and it seemed to confirm the items I was concerned with or letdown by. However, I just watched the Games.on.net video and it brings up some shortcomings of the game as well - Erin being the first contender for the most irritating character of the year (again, the removal of Russell was unwarranted given the poor end quality of the abundant, gameplay-stopping cinematics,) the restriction on jumping and climbable surfaces giving them the impression of a more jigsaw-like game than an open-world game, the game being ugly in quite a few areas, particularly the non-PC platforms, and noting the removal of the XP and quicktime systems (overall improvements, but raising many concerns about the original design intent and the impact that intent will have on the final product.)

As ever, you fall back on challenge. In that regards, you hopefully concede that you are different than many gamers...or let me say that I approach games from a different perspective. Time and time and time again, I have seen you comment on the challenge of a game above all else. Absolutely, I believe it can help shape one's impression of a game (too easy, too hard, can make actions boring, can build a sense of accomplishments, creates a challenge, etc.,) but I often view it as just one piece of the puzzle along with sound design, level design, gameplay mechanics, puzzles, exploration, story, new experience factor, improvement upon prior iterations, etc.

Look, I bough the game yesterday from GMG for $31.50. It's sufficiently Thief-like for my preferences, stealth games are few and far between, this is one of only two games releasing in February I have any interest in, the price was right for all these things, the more recent previews have spoken to a higher level of design quality than earlier previews, etc. But I'll be damned if I cannot already see a number of things that I would love to change or am immediately concerned about.

I think, or at least hope, that's the big difference here. I now effectively own the game, but I want it to be better and think it could have done a lot more given the pedigree of the series and the improvements in both design and technology over the past decade. You and others seem to like this a lot more than others. That's honestly great. However, a seeming belief that the game is amazing or good enough and there shouldn't be any other comments about shortcomings or aspirations for a greater game is something I find particularly saddening. In my book, being blind to shortcomings or halting acknowledgment of them is a race to mediocrity.
Personal preference =/= quality =/= purchase.
Able to like flawed games; able to critique amazing games,
Ray

Eurogamer was the only preview that was consistently negative. Other previews pointed out a few nitpicks and potential concerns but were, as a whole, positive.

As for the issues you mentioned, a lot of it is premature or unfounded. Is Erin annoying? Possibly, though she "dies" in the tutorial mission so it's not like you have to deal with her for the entire game. Also, replacing a voice actor has nothing to do with writing or quality of cinematics. Strategy Informer said the new Garrett VA is surprisingly good. I've addressed the traversal concerns numerous times already. The original Thief games were never defined by emergent gameplay and the ability to manually jump didn't mean you could go wherever you wanted. Level designers still decided where you could and could not go, as is the case in the new game. People complain about the lack of manual jumping as a matter of principle more than anything else. Shitty graphics and performance on consoles is irrelevant to me, as I only care about the PC version. The removal of XP and QTEs will have little to no impact on the game, as they were not fundamental to the overall experience. You used to use XP to buy Focus upgrades, now you use Focus Points. QTEs only existed in a few cinematic moments and were not an actual gameplay mechanic.

Thief may very well end up being disappointing. However, I don't think there's enough evidence to prove that just yet. From the previews I've read, the consensus seems to be that the levels are mostly open-ended and gameplay faithful to the originals. Are there specific things that different people dislike? Sure. I personally dislike the amount of camera bobbing when you're sneaking or grabbing loot. I'd also prefer manual jumping, even if it wouldn't have any meaningful impact on the game. I'd also like to have no cinematics whatsoever and no cuts to a third-person camera. However, are any of these nitpicks significantly detrimental to the game? I'd say no. I will wait until the final game is released before passing judgment on the things that really matter (level design and AI).

Also, I'm fine with people criticizing games before release, as long as those criticisms are based on fact and logic. Unfortunately, the people declaring that the game will be a consolized piece of crap aren't doing that. They take the most minor of nitpicks and blow them out of proportion or they come to absurd conclusions based on faulty logic.

This comment was edited on Jan 26, 2014, 17:42.
 
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News Comments > Steam Top 10
29. Re: Steam Top 10 Jan 26, 2014, 17:07 Jerykk
 
Dev wrote on Jan 26, 2014, 13:21:
On a different topic, they FINALLY released the last hitman game, one of my favorites. Hitman contracts.

Anyone know how they finally did it? My understanding was that some music licensing was holding them back?

Yeah, the bar music in the Rotterdam level was apparently licensed and there was a dispute over that, which is why the game was removed from digital distribution. They've either renewed their license to the music or simply replaced the music entirely.

That said, the sheer number of Early Access games is leading me to rethink my position on them. There's definitely a greater element of buyer-beware than with a product sold as finished but if you're charging money for it, often near or at intended retail price, it should be playable enough to demonstrate the final product - an advanced beta at least (meaning an actual beta, as the word was used 10 years ago).

I don't really see how the quantity of Early Access games changes the fact that it's ultimately the consumer's choice as to whether or not they buy them. Early Access games are clearly labeled as unfinished and there are plenty of ways to get more information about them (reviews, forums, Youtube, etc).

If you're worried about Early Access games drawing the attention away from finished games, then I think the real issue is that the finished games are less interesting than the Early Access ones. If DayZ or Rust were finished, they'd still be topping the charts.

This comment was edited on Jan 26, 2014, 17:12.
 
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News Comments > Daylight Scare Video
7. Re: Daylight Scare Video Jan 26, 2014, 02:23 Jerykk
 
I think this will be the first survival horror game with procedurally generated levels. Should be interesting to see how effective that is.  
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News Comments > Thief Previews; Videos
21. Re: Thief Previews; Videos Jan 25, 2014, 19:40 Jerykk
 
Quboid wrote on Jan 25, 2014, 18:46:
A fail state is not a good way to handle being detected, or for knocking out an enemy IMHO. I want in-game consequences, a tough fight or a chase. I don't know what Thief has but if it is a choice between an easy fight with no further enemy reaction or a "Game Over" screen, then that's a problem.

The point of a stealth game is to avoid detection. If you're fighting enemies, you've already failed the primary goal of the game.

And if you really want a hard fight, you can ramp up the difficulty and disable Focus mode. You can also disable healing items, making the consequences of getting hit have meaning without being an automatic fail state. You can also just run away.

As with any stealth game, the experience is largely dictated by you. If you want a pure, unforgiving stealth experience, you can do that. If you want a stealth experience with some leeway for mistakes, you can do that too.
 
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News Comments > Thief Previews; Videos
19. Re: Thief Previews; Videos Jan 25, 2014, 16:32 Jerykk
 
This is better than I expected, given the garbage they were trying to sell us on (prior to trying to roll a lot of it back at the last moment,) but it's not what I was hoping for. Small, linear, missing atmosphere, limited exploration, minimalizing the punishment for being caught, making the search for loot mundane, scaling back the mystical elements, the jarring swoop for numerous actions, abundant cinematics of lackluster impact(meaning removing Russell was unwarranted,) a design focused around making core gameplay easier, light story, etc.

Eurogamer is the only outlet that thought the levels were small, linear and had limited exploration. The other previews said the exact opposite. As for atmosphere, story, cinematics, mystical elements, we don't have enough information to judge that. The mystical elements in the previous games weren't introduced until the later levels and this demo only included the first four levels.

As for the punishment for being caught, I will post this yet again: http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Stealing-Time-Episode-4?theme=thief

You can make the game as challenging as you like. You can turn off the UI. You can make items more expensive. You can make detection a fail state. You can make it impossible to kill or knockout enemies. You can disable Focus entirely. You can make taking damage a fail state. You can even turn on iron man mode, forcing you to restart the entire game if you ever get a fail state.
 
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