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Nickname Beamer
Email Concealed by request - Send Mail
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Signed On Jan 9, 2003, 00:22
Total Comments 14102 (Ninja)
User ID 15739
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
140. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 21:39 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 20:12:
Icewind wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 20:01:
We're wired differently and most women aren't interested in being coders.

However:

* Nor are most men, when it comes down to it. We coders are a fraction of society in general.

* I've never seen any conclusive data proving there really are inherently less women interested in being coders than men (cf. Prez for pointing out a few things). And I've looked at quite a bit of it (I'm not a domain expert by any means, but I'm professionally implicated as a software developer with institutional responsibilities in some organizations which have female outreach programs).

* Even if it were true, that doesn't mean there aren't or can't be problems with the quality of the workspace experience for the women who do want to code. What percentage of the workforce they constitute doesn't matter. You want to treat individuals well.

* It also doesn't mean the percentage of female developers in the workforce right now is the same as the number of women who'd like to be.

* Some of those individuals equipped with ovaries make damn great engineers. Others are useful. Others aren't. It's really about the same with dudes.

* The specifics of how we are wired differently matter, and are still poorly understood. Here is a recent pop-sci article (don't take as gospel, use as launching point).

* Broader: Coders are also a fraction of game dev. There's a lot of occupations in game dev.

When it comes down to it, not being sexist isn't actually all that hard. It means recognizing that a person's gender doesn't really tell you all that much about them, because on any aspect of life men and women fall into spectra, and while the genders might clump on those spectra here and there, there's also a lot of overlap, and plenty of outliers. In the end you need to look at the individual, and that has implications for how you want to organize, well, your organizations, companies, and societies. And there's definitely still work to do there just on removing certain assumptions in existing systems. For the benefit of both women and men, actually.

There's a nice publication from a University of Texas CS Professor citing the following reasons as very important ones as to why there are so few female programmers:
- Undergraduate classroom teaching in which the “weedout” practices and policies privileging competition over cooperation tend to advantage men.
- Laboratory climates in which women are seen as foreign and not belonging at best, and experience blatant hostility and sexism at worst.
- Well-meaning people who unwittingly create stereotype threat by reminding students that "women can do computing as well as men".
- Strong resistance to changing the system in which these and other subtle practices are continuously reproduced.

Dev rooms tend to have a certain culture, similar to the one here, that women don't last long in. Again, look around us, do you see a single female voice? You certainly see strong resistance to changing the system.
At this point we have endless studies showing women outscore men in the STEM areas by a fairly overwhelming majority.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
139. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 21:34 Beamer
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 21:30:
Hypocrisyof course abounds among the swj class.

Can you people please start giving context to these images you post.

And, regardless, show me one cause that doesn't have idiots in it. One. Any one.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
138. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 21:33 Beamer
 
JohnnyRotten wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 20:45:
ASeven wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:12:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:03:
Fair enough.
But, again, unlike you, I don't spend every waking hour compiling an obsessive, massive list of these things.

Seriously, you just pulled those up in about 5 minutes.
Does this not seem unhealthy to you? How angry you are?

At this point your agenda is pretty obvious and I don't think I owe you any explanation, it doesn't make any difference. You stick to your own circular logic and refuse to move out of it. Just FYI, this info is easily found using google in a minute.

Also, love your passive-aggressive ad-hominem there. Weren't you taught to avoid that in any discussion in law school?

He's not a lawyer. He's claimed to be about a dozen things to position himself as the subject matter expert de facto on everything until I called him out on it years ago on the old forum. Then he just stuck with his last lie.

That's all you need to know about his credibility on any subject.

This is a fun road to go down again. You are right, I am not currently a lawyer. There's a nice "retired" next to my name on the ABA website. Or wherever the hell those things are kept. I've never lied here about my occupation nor my schooling. Schooling, in particular, isn't necessarily useful for credibility, what with degrees being damn near given away. Feel free to go through my history and confirm the timeline works out, but let's not do it in this thread.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
126. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 19:25 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:47:
Agent.X7 wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 15:24:
Lead by example. If you think games are sexist, makes games you think are not sexist. Put up or shut up.


"If you don't like X, go make your own X" is not a valid response to criticism. Such an argument can be used to invalidate ALL criticism for all topics. Critics do not need to be able to go produce an alternative in order to be legitimate critics. You need to engage with critics on their arguments and provide alternatives, not summarily dismiss them.

Roger Ebert was one of the best movie critics of all time. He was not a particularly gifted filmmaker.

Regardless, as has been shown very often, it's difficult for a woman to get into making games, and difficult for them to stay. This tends to be a factor in why so few women do it. Getting the experience and funding to make your own game is difficult without a track record of making your own game.
 
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News Comments > Saints Row: Gat Out of Hell Announced
13. Re: Saints Row: Gat Out of Hell Announced Aug 29, 2014, 19:23 Beamer
 
Prez wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 19:02:
I still like SR3 the best. Zany wackiness with just enough grounding in reality.

Absolutely agree. Well, mostly. Deciding to kill Gat was idiotic and short sighted. Gat was a huge part of what made the games fun. Thankfully far from the only part.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
122. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:47 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:39:
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:27:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:22:
No. Jesus man, no they do not want to tell you what gaming content you can play. They're trying to get gaming content to not fit the same patterns over and over and over.

So she's ok with gaming content about hookers, in-game killing of both women and men etc? That seems a little different than what other posters have said and I've seen attributed to her. Now of course that's not necessarily what game content I want to play, but I want the freedom to play that if I wanted to.

No, I think Beamer might actually be a bit off the mark there (but this is exactly the type of discussion I'd like to see).

As I understand Sarkeesian, her primary point in conclusion to these things is that games are a mass medium now, and that the types of stories we chose to tell in games have consequences for real-life society to some degree. For example, she's saying that if violence against women in games is portrayed as incidental or an unchangable given (and her examples aren't about shitting on specific games, they're about explaining why certain gameplay elements amount out to such things mechanically), it might make real-world society more willing to accept it as a fact of life, or trivialize the degree to which it actually happens out there. The fact that you do end up seeing exactly this used as an argument against her ("but it really is that way, so what's the big deal?") ironically proves her point to some degree. But of course it's an incredibly complex issue and she makes a lot of assumptions that deserve testing.

Anyway, so she's saying that games should be more responsible and make sure if they e.g. portray violence against hookers, that depiction is in some way actually related to what the game is about, or that those hookers are more fully realized as characters than a 10-line game script that implements one specific trivial interaction and nothing more.

So I'm not sure Sarkeesian would actually be satisfied with "just more variety". So that's where independent thinking can follow. Personally, if I understand her right, I don't agree with the extent to which she goes, but I agree that "more variety" would be a positive development and make games more interesting.

I think that's exactly what I said. She doesn't want to get rid of all hookers in games, but she wants people to think about whether they belong in the game or are there for the sake of being there, and whether they (or at least some women) are characters rather than targets.

It isn't about taking away anyone's toys, it's about being more responsible about how we use them.

In any case, I think Julio is a big free market guy. This is just an example of the market doing some deciding. He complains about freedom, but freedom doesn't come into this. She isn't trying to get anyone banned, jailed, or prevented from making games. She's trying to get them to think about what they're doing as a bigger picture.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
118. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:36 Beamer
 
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:32:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:30:
And she doesn't have a problem with hookers in games, she has a problem with the vast majority of games having hookers.

Do you see how you're deliberately ignoring the nuance of the argument? It's like someone saying they don't like Reese's Peanut Butter cups and you being angry that they're trying to take peanut butter from you.

But I like both my Reese's Peanut Butter cups and my peanut butter. She can't have either. I'd like the freedom for all games to have optional hookers.

Oh jesus, you're making this about freedom?
No one is saying that people that put hookers in games should go to jail. She isn't even saying games shouldn't have hookers. She's saying that they shouldn't have hookers just for the sake of having hookers. If it adds nothing to the game, it shouldn't be there. And hookers probably shouldn't be the only women in the game.

But, if the game has hookers and the hookers make sense and there are actual female characters, hooker or otherwise, then carry on.


I don't think you understand the difference between changing a trend and stopping something altogether. I don't think this is as black and white to Anita as it is to you. And if you stopped seeing it that way maybe you'd be less angry.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
117. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:34 Beamer
 
saluk wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:29:
There has been some crazy stuff going on in gaming for a while now. But This Anita person is so harmless. I don't understand all the hate being directed at her. Her points so often don't connect or have missing gaps, and when they do connect the intent or the desired result is still really fuzzy. I think part of it is this issue has been trumped up so many times that a lot of people are sick of hearing about it. I certainly am. But I don't think most gamers - even the awful jerkfaces who spew hate at people like Anita - would even care if a lot of the misogyny that bothers her and her cohorts were to be improved. Not that I'm sure they would notice.

I think this is the point. What are people defending?
Would anyone even notice if Hitman had a few cut scenes where a female said something? Would anyone notice if Grand Theft Auto V had a female character you weren't supposed to hate? Women would, but how about the men?

Yes, people are tired of hearing about this. But, for the women, it's even worse to see it in every single game. And, frankly, these kinds of things get noticed. Epic was criticized for how it treated women in Gears of War. How did it handle it? It made one of the primary POV characters in the book a 60 year old woman and, by the time Gears of War 3 came out, it had women as involved in the fighting as the men were. It took women from the sidelines and put them in the action. And it benefited from it. That's a change that came very much from people saying "Hey, Epic, you kind of screwed this up" and them, rather than saying "go to hell, stop emasculating me and trying to get me to stop making games" instead said "hey, you're right, we never even thought about that. We can do better, and we will."
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
115. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:30 Beamer
 
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:27:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:22:
No. Jesus man, no they do not want to tell you what gaming content you can play. They're trying to get gaming content to not fit the same patterns over and over and over.

So she's ok with gaming content about hookers, in-game killing of both women and men etc? That seems a little different than what other posters have said and I've seen attributed to her. Now of course that's not necessarily what game content I want to play, but I want the freedom to play that if I wanted to.

She has never had a problem with in-game killing. She has a problem when the sole thing women do in a game is exist as a target (or anti-target, in the Hitman case.)
And she doesn't have a problem with hookers in games, she has a problem with the vast majority of games having hookers.

Do you see how you're deliberately ignoring the nuance of the argument? It's like someone saying they don't like Reese's Peanut Butter cups and you being angry that they're trying to take peanut butter from you.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
112. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:26 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:19:
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:18:

I don't know - are you an SJW? If you're for Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian I would say you are.

TBH, I didn't follow the Zoe Quinn thing. I tried to read one summary at some point and went "nope nope nope life's too short" about three paragraphs in. So I have no opinion on that whatsoever. It didn't seem like anything I need to care about.

I think Sarkeesian's videos are interesting.

Likewise.
I'm sure that the counterargument is that we didn't follow Zoe Quinn because it would shatter our world view, but I didn't follow her for a few reasons:

1) I had never heard of her prior
2) He "sin" seemed to be sleeping with 5 dudes while dating another dude, and that seems personal, not public
3) No one ever pointed out clear examples of this leading to actual gaming press. She got a few mentions, but plenty of other friends did without sleeping, and those mentions seemed trivial
4) She got doxxed, and while I'm open to the idea she did it herself for attention (she seems like she's pretty self destructive), the "proof" didn't seem to prove anything. "It's a number in Hawaii" doesn't tell me why it's something she did to herself
5) She made a game about clinical depression. She did some really self-destructive stuff that seems fairly common for people clinically depressed. This didn't seem like a scandal, it seemed like someone clinically depressed sabotaging themselves
6) There's absolutely an element of slut-shaming going on, at the very least coming from the boyfriend, if not from the people so happy to see this happen to her

She'd done some stuff for feminism in gaming prior. I don't know what it was. I don't care. Having never heard her name, it wasn't anything particularly important to me. And it sounds like she was being scummy about it. I've yet to see any viewpoint that doesn't have scummy people involved in it.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
111. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:22 Beamer
 
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:15:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:10:
This is the entire problem with your worldview. Not everyone wants to bring you down. Most don't even care you exist.

Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian and the SJWs want to tell me what gaming content I can play and what offends their morals. They're also bullying those who believe otherwise; screwing their way to publicity; and accusing male gamers of misogyny.

So they're interested in 'bringing me down' since I'm a male gamer. I wouldn't care if they existed if they stopped screwing with my hobby.

No. Jesus man, no they do not want to tell you what gaming content you can play. They're trying to get gaming content to not fit the same patterns over and over and over. They aren't trying to end those patterns entirely, they're trying to make fewer games fall into them.

Never once has Anita said "I'd be happy if there was never another Mario Brothers, because I'm sick of saving the princess." She's said "It would be nice of future games weren't so lazy and found a different motivation for the protagonist than having to save the princess for the billionth time, and Mario already does that more notably than any future IP can."

Stop acting like pointing out where things today are unnecessarily lazy and stupid is an attempt to take away your toys and/or genitals.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
108. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:19 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:17:
FWIW: I heavily disagree with ASeven's opinions, but trying to discredit his position with a mix of "your level of effort is suspicious" and "I'm above the conversation" is exactly the type of behavior I don't like in many of Sarkeesian's critics, too.

No, like I just said, I attack him personally because he's just a weirdo in all this.
Prez, Jerykk, nin, Creston, etc., I may not agree with or in some cases like, but I'll respond to them because they put thoughts down. Whether I think those thoughts are being willfully ignorant to defend their world views (and please, people named, don't take this personally, as it applies to the "etc."), ASeven I think just tends to really hate anything that may make him change.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
106. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:17 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:12:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:03:
Fair enough.
But, again, unlike you, I don't spend every waking hour compiling an obsessive, massive list of these things.

Seriously, you just pulled those up in about 5 minutes.
Does this not seem unhealthy to you? How angry you are?

At this point your agenda is pretty obvious and I don't think I owe you any explanation, it doesn't make any difference. You stick to your own circular logic and refuse to move out of it. Just FYI, this info is easily found using google in a minute.

Also, love your passive-aggressive ad-hominem there. Weren't you taught to avoid that in any discussion in law school?

It's fair to complain that I attack you, but you are so weird in all this. You have constantly posted links to .gifs and articles with no context. They're constantly at your fingers. You haven't really made any arguments yourself, and your images rarely make their own arguments. So many of them are "proof" that someone lied, but proof is something like an admission. What you keep posting is something like "The screenshot was taken 12 seconds after a post was made, therefore it's fake" or "Anita asked for donations 24 hours prior, therefore it's fake." None of that proves anything, yet you keep calling it proof.

I just don't get how your mind works and how you don't see that this sheer glee you're showing can't be seen as you viewing this as victory for men, rather than victory for what's fair.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
98. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:10 Beamer
 
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:09:
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:51:
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:49:
Tell them they can take their man-hating products and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.

What's man-hating about any of this?

If you think the SJW's aren't against men...

This is the entire problem with your worldview. Not everyone wants to bring you down. Most don't even care you exist.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
93. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:03 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 18:00:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:58:

I don't buy this, either. What would these "fuck gamers" articles, of which there's really only one, stop?

Stop lying and being intellectual dishonest.

Here's how many articles have been written to this day about "fuck gamers".

https://archive.today/82HOL
>Kotaku: “We Might Be Witnessing The ‘Death Of An Identiy’”
https://archive.today/mT118
>Dan Golding: “The End of Gamers”
https://archive.today/nWG2P
>Gamasutra: “'Gamers' don't have to be your audience. 'Gamers' are over.”
https://archive.today/OCGsS
>arstechnica: “The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them”
https://archive.today/L4n6p
>Vice: “This Guy's Embarrassing Relationship Drama Is Killing the 'Gamer' Identity”

Fair enough.
But, again, unlike you, I don't spend every waking hour compiling an obsessive, massive list of these things.

Seriously, you just pulled those up in about 5 minutes.
Does this not seem unhealthy to you? How angry you are?
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
91. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 18:02 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:59:
Slick wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:55:

there is a real discussion buried beneath all of this, but trying to have a frank discussion about any real issue with the gamer community is like trying to have tea with a rabid terrier.

Yeah. On a meta level, I keep wondering if someone shouldn't put in the effort and make a "Men vs. Tropes in Video Games" series. Not as direct counter to Sarkeesian's topics, but actually sitting down and thinking through male representation in video games. Aside from being just as interesting and worthwhile, it would also maybe help stopping this jealous guarding behavior from parts of the community.

There was a kickstarter for this.
For all the talk of Anita being a fraud just trying to line her pockets, the guy that did the Tropes vs. Men thing actually took the money and ran. He claimed he donated it all to charity when he couldn't deliver, but the charity claims they never received it.

In any case, the difference is that video games tend to be male power fantasies. So yes, the male characters tend to be more "ideal" than the average male, but they're ideal in the ways we want to be so that we want to slip in their shows and spend a few hours shaping their world. The female portrayals tend to not be female power fantasies but additional parts of male power fantasies. In other words, the men tend to be what men want to be, and the women tend to be what men want them to be rather than what women would have any interest at all in being.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
89. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 17:59 Beamer
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:56:
Beamer wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 13:38:
Also, can we stop with the "cherry picking" argument?

She has to pick examples. It's when she uses examples that misrepresent that she gets herself in trouble, and makes the videos about her methodology instead of the topic at hand. Failure to do so makes her look like she doesn't know what she's talking about. She needs to apply a little more rigor to her arguments. Especially with such an emotionally charged topic, she needs to have ironclad reasoning.

I agree, but some people aren't saying she's cherry picking moments, but cherry picking games, hence they "why doesn't she talk about all the good Borderlands did!" argument.

And I disagree with the cherry picking complaints I've seen. In large part because most people fail to say what she cherry picks, and just say she cherry picks. But some, like Jerykk, actually put context to their posts and cite their arguments with specifics. I just disagree with him on the Hitman thing.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
87. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 17:58 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:39:
Some of the forums discussing this are posting this post taken from 4chan. Since it's 4chan take it with a kilo of salt but an interesting read nonetheless.

"Game Journalist here.

I work for a major site, not saying which one since my silence on all of this is obvious even to my co-workers. It'd make it way too obvious who I was.

To put it bluntly; you're winning. Advertisers have contacted our site, and I know they've contacted others, and they're fucking pissed. This shit has gone on longer than anyone has expected it to, and it's beginning to affect the brands of people associated with ours and other sites. They want it to stop. And the bosses of these sites are scared; adblock has already cut deep into the money our site makes, and I know it's slicing hard into others.

This has translated in the minds of most of my 'associates' as 'make them stop no matter what', hence all these 'fuck gamer' articles. They're trying to push as hard as they can in hopes everyone backs down. The most important thing to do now is not to back down. They're shooting themselves in the foot. Save any screencaps of anything crazy anyone says, and just repost it forever. Spread it around. Get it onto social media. Spread adblock. Spread advertiser contact. The single most effective thing you can do is contact advertisers. Even 10 letters can get them to call us.

I sure as fuck don't care what happens to us; I finish getting my second degree next year and I'm out anyway. Let it burn."

I don't buy this, either. What would these "fuck gamers" articles, of which there's really only one, stop?
It's fueling the fire. It's intensifying things. It certainly isn't stopping anything. Anyone expecting that to stop something is an idiot. Posts like Sho's, which are fairly balanced, can lead to something stopping.

Saying "fuck gamers" keeps it going.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
84. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 17:55 Beamer
 
Sho wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:51:
Julio wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:49:
Tell them they can take their man-hating products and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.

What's man-hating about any of this?

To some, constructive criticism is hatred.
Some have described what Anita does as trying to neuter and emasculate. I just don't see how "have some women that aren't prostitutes" takes our genitals away.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
83. Re: Op Ed Aug 29, 2014, 17:54 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Aug 29, 2014, 17:50:
The hypocrisy of SJWs in a nice article.

Can you please stop putting up links without context and, for once, spell out your own argument.

I'm pretty certain you have taken the week off from work to scour the internet looking for articles. Again, for a guy solely obsessed with the integrity of journalism, you've spent an enormous amount of time on articles about two women, far more than on better examples of the lack of integrity in games journalism (which no one ever believed it had, anyway.)
 
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