Cutter wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:55:

McSterls wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 13:55:
I think they saw Notch made $101 million last year and the costs skyrocketed. How bout not making the game int he Bay area or structuring peoples salaries so that they get less money upfront and a percentage on the back end. There are all sorts of creative ways to bring a project together, it's not like studios aren't collapsing all over the place and developers are letting their people go to a jobless future.

Exactly. Call it 10 guys at 50k each + points on sales. Why needlessly pay a premium to run an office in one of the most expensive cities in the world? Point I was making is they could do it for about 2 million or less, they simply choose not to.

Orphic Resonance wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:37:

Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:26:
I agree that this is what Notch was thinking, but it's naive. The simple fact that it's a 3D with fairly open levels (not open world, but open levels) adds to the cost immensely.

And I don't think DoubleFine is set up to do this kind of work. So they'd have to hire people. A lot of people. And there are costs associated with that.

To do it cheaper much of the style would have to be altered, and the gameplay along with it. Which isn't to say it's impossible, but it would be a very different game.

but thats purely rampant overblown speculation on your part, much like that "budget" you dreamed up

you seem to put a great deal of faith in your speculations, but i dont share that faith with you at all

so i would consider all of this windbaggery fairly pointless.. maybe you get more traction with the other kids around here tho

Flatline wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:21:

Verno wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:12:

rist3903 wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 13:59:
I think not making games in one of the most expensive places to live might be a good start.

The talent pool in the industry (in NA) tends to be concentrated in several areas and getting people to move or establishing a new location can be very costly. It's getting better but it takes time and people tend to hang around geographically to the big players as that's often where the jobs and projects are.

True be we are just now starting to limp out of 4 years of recession. It's an employer's market, and I know people would relocate all over NA for a steady job on their own time over the past few years.

Games industry however seems to have gotten bloated enough that they aren't fast-reacting like they used to be. Seems to me when dev studios can be planted just about anywhere and game sales are down, that getting some talent together in a place where cost of living is 1/3rd other parts of the country makes sense. Even if you don't cut pay correspondingly, your money goes a hell of a lot further.

Flatline wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:17:

Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 14:01:
Also, any graphics intensive AAA game will cost you over 18 million.

Hell, a bog simple game licensing UE3 and making 0 engine modifications will likely have a baseline of 10 million. That's how much Epic has claimed Gears of War cost, and I'm guessing it was because their accounting put the engine build into the UE3 budget, not into the Gears budget.

Just think about it. Odds are you need:
- 2 engine guys. Figure $120k/year, round up to $150k to include benefits
- 1 lead developer. Same price
- 10 programmers. $85k
- 6 artists. $40k/year, round up to $50k
- 4 gameplay designers. $50k/year, round up to $65k
- 5 animators. $65k
- 10 map designers. $65k
- 2 sound guys. Same price as artists
- 1 music guy. $80k
- 1 writer. $120k
- 4 dedicated testing leads. $30k
- 10 additional testers. $20k

That's already $3.5 million. Figure $9 million for a 2.5 year development cycle. On top of that you need:
Cast. For Psychonauts you probably need at least 30-40 people, as it had a lot of characters. You need to pay them, pay their travel, pay for someone to record. $500,000
Occupancy. Rent for a place for 2.5 years, plus utilities? Given the juice they're running, figure $300k per year.
Equipment. You need a lot of good computers and expensive software. They already have a bunch, but we'll still take $500,000 on
Engine license. $1 million

We're already over $11 million, and we haven't taken a ton into account. There's the people not actually involved in the game development such as the IT team, the executives, the administrative staff, the HR people, the CFO, etc. It's ignoring taxes that need to be paid. It's ignoring the free food in the break room. And many of these numbers are lowballing.

I doubt that psychonauts 2 was ever intended to be a AAA title and more a labor of love though. Or at least, that's what Notch was probably figuring. DF apparently I guess figured on running the entire studio on it and not doing it as a side/indie project.

Cutter wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 12:19:

Beamer wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 10:45:
Pancakes = flapjacks.

While we're at it, football != soccer, and there's no u in "color."

In the English language there is a U. Only Americans are lazy enough to want to drop a letter because it's too much work to insert it.

The Oxford English Dictionary records the word flapjack as being used as early as the beginning of the 17th century, referring to a flat tart or pan-cake. Shakespeare refers to pancakes in All's Well That Ends Well and to flap-jacks in Pericles, Prince of Tyre:[30]

"Come, thou shant go home, and we'll have flesh for holidays, fish for fasting-days, and moreo'er puddings and flap-jacks, and thou shalt be welcome."

Act II Scene I

Shakespeare was down with the flapjacks, motherfuckers!

Fibrocyte wrote on Feb 5, 2013, 12:06:
So he'll invest 2 million and let them find the rest from other investors, right?

Quinn wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 20:37:

Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 18:40:

RollinThundr wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:39:

Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:26:

RollinThundr wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:08:
Just out of curiosity what term would that be that's racist? Why is it only racist if a white person uses said term when black people use it towards each other all the time?

Ug.

Seriously, you're asking questions a child would ask.

Do you have any inside jokes with your family? Maybe your brother eats a lot, and you all make fun of him being fat. It's light-hearted, and you all appreciate it. But if someone outside your family were to call him fat, you'd probably take offense.

You're also ignoring context. The word is derogatory. No one will deny that. And, historically, it was used derogatorily by one race against another.

While it's probably not good for people of the one race to use it, it's absolutely not good for people of the other.


That you're even asking this shows that you've put no thought into understanding why the word is considered offensive and hurtful to some. But that's no surprise - you're one of those people that cares more about your ability to do something and takes great offense to someone saying you shouldn't and puts no care into thinking about why people ask you don't do something. You care only about rights and not about using those rights responsibly.

No I get it, I just hate the double standard is all. That and I love getting your panties in a bunch.

Life is full of double standards, idiot. Everywhere.

The real problem is that whole "family" bullshit. It makes sense in your analogy, Beamer, but for black people to still consider eachother family like that is so 1865. It's exactly that attitude that makes me feel different than many of them: not the colour, but that goddamned "you're my bro and ha ha ha lets laugh at the dancing patterns of white folk.".

Just grow the fuck up and let me be your bro, cause you'd be a mate of mine whatever colour you are.

Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 22:55:
Yes, I'm sure they didn't make any compromises at all to get it to run on smartphones. Just like MS didn't make any compromises in dumbing down win 8 to be the same on all platforms.
Oh wait...

RollinThundr wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:39:

Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:26:

RollinThundr wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:08:
Just out of curiosity what term would that be that's racist? Why is it only racist if a white person uses said term when black people use it towards each other all the time?

Ug.

Seriously, you're asking questions a child would ask.

Do you have any inside jokes with your family? Maybe your brother eats a lot, and you all make fun of him being fat. It's light-hearted, and you all appreciate it. But if someone outside your family were to call him fat, you'd probably take offense.

You're also ignoring context. The word is derogatory. No one will deny that. And, historically, it was used derogatorily by one race against another.

While it's probably not good for people of the one race to use it, it's absolutely not good for people of the other.


That you're even asking this shows that you've put no thought into understanding why the word is considered offensive and hurtful to some. But that's no surprise - you're one of those people that cares more about your ability to do something and takes great offense to someone saying you shouldn't and puts no care into thinking about why people ask you don't do something. You care only about rights and not about using those rights responsibly.

No I get it, I just hate the double standard is all. That and I love getting your panties in a bunch.

Orphic Resonance wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 15:15:
but the simple fact is that subjectivity is not objectivity, no matter how much you want it to be.. no matter how RIGHT!! you feel about it

RollinThundr wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 14:08:
Just out of curiosity what term would that be that's racist? Why is it only racist if a white person uses said term when black people use it towards each other all the time?

Orphic Resonance wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 13:48:

Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 11:36:
I'll never get this much venom, or such stupid things like "Dung Seige."

Did he hurt you? Yeah, Dungeon Siege wasn't great, but Total Annihilation is still better than any other RTS - it actually ruined them for me.

I have no real care about Christ Taylor one way or another, but it's so damn weird to me that others do.

so you are trying to tell me you've never talked shit about a game, or a developer, or a company.. to any extent?

whatever you say buddy

deqer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 13:35:

Beamer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 13:08:

deqer wrote on Feb 4, 2013, 12:13:
Being a Whigger is not being a racist.

Given that the Whig party was mostly pro-slavery, I'd say yes, being a Whigger would almost definitely make you racist.

Assuming you meant "wigger," consider what it's a portmanteau of before claiming it not totally offensive. Plenty of people that use it wouldn't use its root word, which is strange.

What? no.

Whigger is another way of spelling Wigger, or vice versa.
They both have the same meaning.
Being a Wigger does not make you a racist. Wigger is not making fun of the culture; they are embracing it as their own.

---

Sigh.

This just proves we have a fresh new generation of stupid young kids playing games these days, and now they have the internet are their disposal to making ridiculous childish claims about racism, trying to appear smart like they know what racism is and they've spotted a racist and start yapping, blah blah...

/thread