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User information for Ecthelion

Real Name Ecthelion   
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Nickname Ecthelion
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Homepage http://
Signed On Nov 2, 2002, 13:54
Total Comments 1408 (Pro)
User ID 15046
 
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
10. Re: Out of the Blue Jul 1, 2015, 16:57 Ecthelion
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 1, 2015, 14:26:
I'm curious what comes to mind first for our Yankee cousins south of the border when they think of Canadian music. Like whenever I think of the 4th of July I think of you guys listening to the Boss Born in the USA and James Brown Living in America while shotgunning cans of Miller and shooting off your shotguns while chicks with big titties prance around in American flag bikinis.

Wry
Speaking for myself, Canadian music immediately brings Rush to mind. Which isn't a bad thing. I'm not big on Neil Young (or folk music in general), but he comes to mind too. Most of the more recent "indie" music I like is Canadian too (e.g. New Pornographers), but I'm not sure if they are particularly Canadian or if that just happens to be where they are from.

Again speaking for myself, this is one American who does not and never will own a gun of any kind (and I live in mid-Northern Virginia, surrounded by military retirees and country folks... I'm probably the only one around without a gun). So we're not ALL shotgun-blasting rednecks.

Also, nice SCTV reference. I wish the whole series was available on DVD or Netflix, because the little I've seen of it is great, especially the Great White North skits (which must be even funnier for actual Canadians). I've had the movie version (Strange Brew) on my Netflix queue for a while and never gotten around to watching it. We Americans tend to know the SCTV cast more from their American movies, but they were really great on SCTV. I enjoyed Kids in the Hall too, but unfortunately it was pretty hit-and-miss, like most sketch comedy.

This comment was edited on Jul 1, 2015, 17:03.
 
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News Comments > Saturday Tech Bits
7. Re: Saturday Tech Bits Jun 27, 2015, 16:15 Ecthelion
 
Silicon Avatar wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 14:31:
I thought support for XP had already run out.
It did end a year ago, in April 2014. This article is actually about a specific software vendor ending support for Windows XP and Vista. In other words, their new software versions will not support XP or Vista. The headline is a bit confusing.

Vista itself is still supported by Microsoft, but Microsoft stopped patching and supporting Windows XP over a year ago. Unfortunately at work we have a few XP computers still because of some legacy software, and Windows Update doesn't even work anymore (obviously new updates don't exist but in some cases those old computers are not fully updated with the latest updates while Microsoft still supported XP).

According to the link Shok shared, Microsoft is still doing custom patching support for XP for the military and other government departments, which is probably a smart business move. The sad fact is, if they hadn't stopped supporting XP, many businesses would still be using it. I will be overjoyed when we can finally retire our legacy software and get rid of XP for good. It was a good OS but it is well past due for being taken out back and put out of its misery.
 
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News Comments > Into the Black
2. Re: Into the Black Jun 25, 2015, 20:17 Ecthelion
 
Avengers is one of my favorite TV shows. Patrick Macnee's John Steed always had a nice touch of class, and Diane Rigg's Emma Peel was smart, sexy, and tough. At least Macnee lived to a ripe old age though. It always hit me really hard when he gets strangled in A View to a Kill (and then Bond tries to make up with his killer). If only James Bond tried a little harder to keep his sidekicks alive...  
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News Comments > Morning Mobilization
7. Re: Morning Mobilization Jun 25, 2015, 06:56 Ecthelion
 
Simon Says wrote on Jun 24, 2015, 14:24:
A sidescroller Metroid is what I want since they released Super Metroid... The FPS metroids they released were uber crap in comparison. And its not like they couldn't use 3d rendering in a sidescroller.
Those are my favorites. I actually have the Metroid Prime Trilogy on Wii but have not managed to finish the first one (much less all three). It's a good game but I much prefer the sidescroller ones.

Did you play the two Gameboy Advance entries? Metroid Zero Mission was a remake of the original Metroid, and Metroid Fusion was a new sidescroller game. I loved both of them. Axiom Verge is great too but it's not an actual Metroid game of course.
 
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News Comments > Morning Mobilization
5. Re: Morning Mobilization Jun 24, 2015, 11:18 Ecthelion
 
NegaDeath wrote on Jun 24, 2015, 11:02:
I get the frustration, I want a new Metroid. We haven't had one in HD yet and with the artistic talent Retro displayed with the Prime trilogy that's a damn shame. If I were in charge I'd greenlight a new one and while fans are waiting also arrange for an HD port of the Trilogy digital re-release that existing customers would get for free or a small upgrade charge. But this petition is just childish.

Edit: Also keep it away from the team that did Other M. *shudder*
I agree on every count.

Personally I am more excited for a 2D Metroid game, but that may not happen since most people probably want 3D.

There is nothing wrong with making experimental spin-off games like this. Nintendo is actually good at them. The thing is, it is easier for fans to accept spin-offs for series that have had recent "main entry" releases. Mario is a great choice for spin-offs, because we get new main entry Mario games every few years. Spin-offs do not detract from the Mario brand. But in the case of Metroid, there has not been a main entry since 2007 (or 2010 if you count Other M as a main entry). Nintendo should have announced a main entry first, then this Federation Force spin-off (or changed it to a different series than Metroid). This just looks like they don't care what fans want. Reggie has basically confirmed that a main entry is in the works, but that's not the same as an announcement with an expected timeframe. Based on the way they announce games, it's at least 2 years off. It's understandable that fans might feel Nintendo is no longer interested in making main entry Metroid games with a move like this. Reggie is saying that's not the case, but at this point we can't count on anything, especially since this future Metroid game could get canceled.

Nintendo was smart to announce a main entry Star Fox game. If that had been a spin-off fans would probably be upset.

That being said, the petition is childish. But I understand the frustration.
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
49. Re: Op Ed Jun 20, 2015, 11:31 Ecthelion
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 18, 2015, 21:03:
@ Ecthelion

I would argue New Order is a modern game by a large publisher that does it somewhat right. They made a whole game, and sold it for a reasonable price. There was no attempt to sell map packs or skins or weapons or any of the other stupid crap the big publishers pull these days. They made a stand-alone follow up less than a year later, again a full game.
"Somewhat" right? What did they do wrong? I can't help thinking that if a game like this were made in the "glorious" 90's it would get more heartfelt praise.

Maybe you didn't mean to sound begrudging in your praise, but this just adds to my theory about nostalgia glasses.

My point is that there are still big publishers making games that deserve praise. Yes they're designed to make money (as they have always been to varying degrees) but they're also designed to be fun. Not every game is Call of Duty with DLC map packs.
 
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News Comments > Evening Mobilization
6. Re: Metroid Jun 19, 2015, 10:28 Ecthelion
 
ViRGE wrote on Jun 19, 2015, 06:56:
Cram wrote on Jun 18, 2015, 19:14:
I don't get Nintendo here either or what in the hell they are thinking with the Metroid franchise. Or most of their franchises, for that matter.
Clearly the idea was to put together a fun co-op handheld FPS. The issue is that while Metroid as a universe is a good setting, Metroid as a franchise is a hard sell because it has always been about Samus.
I get what they were trying to do, but it's pretty sad that the only way to get a 2D Metroid fix is to play Axiom Verge (which is a great game, but not actually Metroid). Surely a proper 2D Metroid would not cost more to make than this spin-off game that nobody asked for. A Metroid Prime 3D game might cost more, even on 3DS, but Nintendo should know that's what everyone wants.

That being said, the wording of this petition is silly (as are 90% of petitions). "Atrocity"? Please. I don't blame Nintendo for trying new things, but they have to keep their fans happy at the same time with games that they want.
 
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News Comments > Out of the Blue
20. Re: Out of the Blue Jun 18, 2015, 18:37 Ecthelion
 
Cutter wrote on Jun 18, 2015, 17:47:
1badmf wrote on Jun 18, 2015, 17:09:
so the dark lord of mordor is an animal lover. huh.

Who says he loves animals? Maybe he's needlessly cruel doing unnecessary operations and putting completely healthy animals down for a larf. Maybe he's secretly turning them into an orc army to sweep over the land.
Your first idea sounds like a great horror movie. Re-Animator but with pets!
 
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News Comments > Op Ed
42. Re: Op Ed Jun 18, 2015, 14:29 Ecthelion
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 18, 2015, 13:29:
In the past devs made games to make a good game. Today, corporations make games to make money. It's really that simple, and it's obvious in the game design.
Wow, this thread is even better than a political scandal! In between all the rhetoric there is some truth though. Are people here (and old gamers in general) jaded? Sure. I'm one of them; I should know. One of my first PC games was Wolfenstein 3D, and I recently finished Wolfenstein The New Order. New Order was a fantastic game and probably cost several orders of magnitude more money to make than Wolf 3D. The nostalgic gamer in me might say Wolf 3D is a "better" game, but in most if not all of the measurable categories, New Order wins. The presentation was obviously better, and even the length was longer especially if you remove all the time you waste in Wolf 3D due to not having a map or strafing (New Order felt unusually long for a modern game, actually). I think if we're honest with ourselves, a lot of what makes a good game is subjective, and nostalgia glasses certainly change our perception.

That being said, it's undeniable that gaming has changed. Like movies, games have changed in terms of business and they are more about making money than making something that's just fun or artistic. A great example is mobile games. Most smartphone games do not take dozens of millions of dollars to make, but they are usually "free to play" and loaded down with in-game purchases. I've heard some publishers (and even developers I think) compare this new trend to shareware. So I think in terms of Wolfenstein 3D that I mentioned above. For free, you got the entire first episode, which is at least an hour of gameplay. You could buy the other episodes and get the whole game for a normal price (it was $50 I think?). Compare that with mobile games where you buy "tokens" to keep playing and sometimes get new content that you would get anyway, by playing for hundreds of repetitive hours. Those don't really seem similar to me. I think it's self-evident that the current mobile game environment is extremely monetized. In my mind, DLC is far less "evil" and something I have a much easier time accepting. I have no interest in CoD map packs and other multiplayer DLC. But story DLC for a game I like is something I am willing to buy, just like I bought expansion packs in the past.

There are also certainly games still being made for fun (and to make money as well). Watch an interview with the people at Insomniac Games, or a lot of indie devs (and other studios I'm forgetting) and tell me that they are not making games for fun or to make good games. They obviously love what they are doing and want people to love their games for being fun. Are they concerned with making money? Of course, but they do also want to make fun games. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Games also cost more to make now (except for indie games and such), and that's not going to change. The fact is, the market has not found a way to charge more than $60 for standard games (i.e. not collector's editions) so publishers are constantly looking for new ways to make money, and DLC is one of them. It's just a business reality, and there will always be people willing to buy it, so it will continue to be made.

There is an argument to be made that for the most part we don't get as much content as we used to for our $50/60, and in terms of raw gameplay length, I would be inclined to agree. But I also feel like there are enough good games being made (especially if you include indies) that I have a hard time complaining too much. In the 90's I could not imagine playing with the technology and graphics we have today (but sadly AI has not improved much at all ). I don't like all the changes I've seen in my favorite hobby but good has come with the bad and at the end of the day there are still more than enough good games to keep my little amount of free time occupied.
 
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News Comments > Morning Consolidation
2. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 10, 2015, 15:43 Ecthelion
 
harlock wrote on Jun 10, 2015, 15:38:
an external drive slower than an internal drive?

NO WAY!
And a third-party external enclosure, to boot. Big surprise.
 
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News Comments > Resident Evil 0 Trailer
6. Re: Resident Evil 0 Trailer Jun 9, 2015, 08:49 Ecthelion
 
Xero wrote on Jun 9, 2015, 08:30:
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jun 9, 2015, 06:32:
Welcome to 1997.

Seriously, what the hell is with the appalling graphics? This makes Fallout 4 look nearly not terrible.

You must of forgot this is an HD remake and not much else? Basically they are doing this for new players to attempt and get into the older games by giving them a little update. They aren't doing a full on remake because that would be too costly. Rather a simple face simple and easy money.
Yeah, this was originally a Gamecube game, 2002 era. You have to remember that at that time, the highest resolution on consoles was 480p (some PS2 games could do 1080i but I think it was just upscaled). This remaster is basically that game with higher-res textures, widescreen support, and the addition of non-tank controls. Of course it also has stuff like social features, trophies/achievements, etc. But the game isn't going to look "next gen" because of its origins.

On a related note, we may never see a HD remake of RE2, because that would cost a lot more than what they're doing with RE1 and RE0; for RE2 they would basically be making a brand new game. Presumably Nintendo paid Capcom decent money to get RE1 remade on Gamecube, and to get RE0 made. Don't forget that RE4 was actually a Gamecube exclusive at first as well, so Nintendo locked down Capcom for 1 extensive RE remake and 2 brand new RE games.

Some of the confusion might be that the news headline (and some of the posters here) uses the term "remake" which this is not. It is a remaster, not a remake. The recent Resident Evil Remaster was actually a remaster of a remake (RE1 was remade on Gamecube, going from PS1 to PS2 era graphics), so that might be what people are thinking of here. RE0 was originally a Gamecube game so this is a remaster of that game. It was never a remake.
 
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News Comments > Sunday Legal Briefs
8. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 8, 2015, 21:04 Ecthelion
 
Verno wrote on Jun 8, 2015, 15:10:
For playing things from discs its just a convenience thing. I don't like hunting down the disc, going through the dumb unskippable stuff and so on. Ripping everything I own isn't worth the time when I can find good quality copies online ready to go. My GF jokes that I buy blurays for no reason since its just to assuage my conscience for downloading a copy. I do my own rips where I care about quality and download where I don't.

Its worth noting that physical discs have DRM anyway, its just been cracked.
That's a fair point about unskippable stuff. It's not really fair that we get penalized with "don't steal movies" ads and unskippable trailers when we pay for the damn disc. Yet another advantage of programs like AnyDVD.

DVDs and Blu-rays do have DRM, but they're not really "tied" to a service. You don't need to be connected to the internet to play Blu-rays (assuming your player is fairly up-to-date), so if the Blu-ray industry shut down overnight, you'd be able to play them as long as the firmware update servers stayed up for a while (or if you stayed updated prior to that). It's pretty rare that I play a disc that needs an update, actually. DVDs don't have that restriction; they're more like disc-based games with Securrom or whatever. It's about as close to "owning" as you'll get for movies and TV, and it's good enough for me.
 
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News Comments > Sunday Legal Briefs
6. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 8, 2015, 13:04 Ecthelion
 
Verno wrote on Jun 8, 2015, 09:29:
Ecthelion wrote on Jun 7, 2015, 18:29:
I like Netflix and Amazon Instant Video, but I know that they could drop Star Trek The Next Generation at any time. For a fan, the smart choice is to own the show. The same is true of music.

I don't even trust ownership on many of those services. I had a show yanked I bought off Microsofts stupid Xbox 360 video services thing awhile ago. I had bought what was supposed to be a lifetime license for it but they had some dispute with the content company and yanked it. They just kind of shrugged and offered a credit for $5. I built a giant NAS awhile back and now I just download things that I might want to watch in the future or to show people when they come over. I try to do everything legit where I can but where the content companies make life difficult I improvise and I sleep just fine.
Good point, which is why I was actually talking about physical copies. I buy DVDs and Blu-rays for shows and movies that I want to own. I understand that digital is more convenient, but for me it's not worth the compromise of losing special features, image and sound quality (usually), and usually a higher price. I'm also one of those weirdos who likes clever DVD/Blu-ray menus.

In any case, if I really want digital copies of movies and shows I own, I can always rip them. I don't really need digital copies though; I have no problem grabbing the DVD/Blu-ray from my shelf.

I do get what you're saying about content companies making life difficult though. I'm not sure it really applies to movies and TV though, since the vast majority of them are available to buy on DVD/Blu-ray (with some strange exceptions like Bob's Burgers, and of course older shows that don't have proper physical releases like SNL). But on the topic of music, when I like a band I want to have all their studio recordings (I'm not a huge fan of live recordings, but I enjoy some of them). A lot of times it's very difficult to track down songs that were B-sides without purchasing expensive single CDs that are probably out of print. In those cases, I have no problem doing what you mention. As I mentioned, I buy MP3s on Amazon (and iTunes if necessary), but I don't rely on those services. I make sure I have the MP3s downloaded so I have a copy I can control.

This comment was edited on Jun 8, 2015, 13:09.
 
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News Comments > Sunday Legal Briefs
2. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Jun 7, 2015, 18:29 Ecthelion
 
nin wrote on Jun 7, 2015, 14:07:
Apple Music and the terrible return of DRM.

Don't have a lot of pity for folks that rely on streaming and then complain about another service. If you like it, own it, with the expectation that you're responsible for it's future. Services will come and go, but something you bought and future proofed * (as much as you can) can last decades.

* Currently in the process of wav, flacing, and mp3ing every disc I own, trying to beat the clock before cd drives go away.

Yeah, I understand that streaming services like Spotify are convenient and popular, but they don't appeal to me. I used to own CDs until I got rid of them to save space. Now I buy digital music on Amazon (and iTunes if Amazon doesn't have it), and I have a pretty massive MP3 collection (I know FLAC is lossless but I settled for MP3s since I mostly listen to music in noisy environments like my car, where lossless wouldn't make much difference). I have a 128GB USB stick that has my music on it, and it's currently half full. Eventually it will fill up and I'll get a 256.

I guess today's streaming fans are the same types of people that are satisfied with the radio playing a song they like every once in a while. Maybe I'm weird, but when I want to listen to music, I go through libraries, like all of Queen's albums, or all of Nas, or what have you. Of course I could just put my car stereo on random but that's never appealed to me.

The author of the article suggests that "going back to MP3s" is rolling back time. Why? Streaming services have made listening to music more convenient but have they improved anything? I don't think so. It's yet another example of technology getting replaced (in this case, replaced in the public eye; it's not a real replacement) and losing features.

I like Netflix and Amazon Instant Video, but I know that they could drop Star Trek The Next Generation at any time. For a fan, the smart choice is to own the show. The same is true of music.
 
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News Comments > Steam Controller Video
27. Re: Steam Controller Video Jun 6, 2015, 02:11 Ecthelion
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jun 6, 2015, 00:24:
Ecthelion wrote on Jun 5, 2015, 13:52:
I know I wouldn't want to use a mouse on a couch. You would be stuck using the side of the couch corresponding with your mouse hand (or else using pillows), and most couch arms

You don't use the couch arm, you use the seat cushion to the side of you that you sit on. The laser mice works and mouse slides comfortably on many fabrics. The arm of a couch doesn't work for reasons you mention and that your arm is up/bent in a way it doesn't work well for long if at all. However flat on your side, no joint stress, just works. If you haven't tried it, then you wouldn't be certain. If you have and don't like it, well that is an opinion people can have, for me it's pretty surprising how well it works. The comment was "you can't lay down and use it like you could a pad", that is true, that doesn't work. You have to sit up proper.
That was actually my first assumption, but I dismissed the idea since that would require you to keep your elbow up off the couch. One of the reasons we have desk chairs is to keep our lower arms (and by extension upper arms) supported. Keeping your arm low to use a mouse at the level of your leg doesn't sound like it would work for long gaming sessions because it would cause fatigue. Maybe it works for people with unusually long upper arms (i.e. elbows below the waist), but I'm not one of them. I just tried it (with a phantom mouse) and the only way I can make my elbow flat next to me on the couch is to lean to the right, which eventually gets uncomfortable. If it works for some people, great. It doesn't seem very practical to me.
 
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News Comments > Steam Controller Video
15. Re: Steam Controller Video Jun 5, 2015, 13:52 Ecthelion
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jun 5, 2015, 10:39:
I'm still not sure why it is assumed a mouse on the couch can't work. Today's mice work well on a couch, they scroll and track smoothly on the cushion next to you.
I know I wouldn't want to use a mouse on a couch. You would be stuck using the side of the couch corresponding with your mouse hand (or else using pillows), and most couch arms (and pillows) are not completely flat so it wouldn't even be a stable surface. A trackball would work better but still be ill-suited to a couch.

Controllers are much more flexible, allowing you to go anywhere you want on the couch or even stand up when your pet or kid starts interfering with your hand movements. Trust me, I'm speaking from experience here.

I'm not a fan of what I've seen of the Steam Controller. I've never used a touchpad that doesn't suck; I would rather have a physical d-pad and a standard right analog stick. I understand what they're trying to do with the mouse emulation, but I am very skeptical. We'll see though, it would be awesome if it does what it's claiming and blows other controllers out of the water.
 
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News Comments > Morning Consolidation
3. Re: Morning Consolidation Jun 2, 2015, 14:37 Ecthelion
 
jdreyer wrote on Jun 2, 2015, 13:25:
Looks like Sony is readying a 1TB PlayStation 4.

Ooo, 1TB!

2007 called and wants its storage back.
Yeah, I don't know why they're going so cheap on storage (both Microsoft and Sony). Considering how easy it is to switch out the PS4's hard drive, they really should increase the included storage. I only had mine for a few months before I grabbed a 2TB drive and upgraded it. The drive cost me $120 but I would think the difference between that and a 500GB model with Sony's bulk pricing would be fairly small, especially since a fairly bare-bones drive would be fine (consoles don't really benefit from SSDs or hybrid drives). I guess they thought 500GB was a sweet spot for pricing to needed space, but that fills up fast with today's large games. 1TB should really be a minimum, with 2TB preferred.

In fairness though, it wasn't until 2009 that I got my first 1TB drive according to Newegg's Order History. It was only $80 though, and that's just nitpicking between 2007 an 2009. Even for 2009, 1TB was easy to get cheaply and we're now 6 years later.
 
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News Comments > Saturday Consolidation
4. Re: Saturday Consolidation May 31, 2015, 01:23 Ecthelion
 
Mordhaus wrote on May 30, 2015, 16:56:
Oh cry me a river. Console boys getting to know what it feels like to lose promising games to a new platform, welcome to the PC struggle!
Apparently people don't know all the facts here. This is a lot different from Halo 1 going from PC/Mac to Xbox exclusive (for a while at least), this is in fact a case where the game was announced and in development for PS4 (and possibly Xbox One), and then canceled. The game is not moving to smartphones, it's not coming out at all unless someone resurrects it. Konami, in their latest baffling move, announced that they are focusing on mobile games now, so there is no room for expensive AAA console/PC games. Then of course they tried to reaffirm their commitment to actual gaming platforms, but I don't think anyone believes them at this point. Silent Hills is still canceled no matter how you look at it.
 
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News Comments > Morning Tech Bits
5. Re: Morning Tech Bits May 14, 2015, 22:16 Ecthelion
 
Necrophob wrote on May 14, 2015, 13:33:
"Does Using an AOL Email Address Suggest You're a Tech Dinosaur"

Perhaps they could Ask Jeeves?
Or even better, use Altavista to get to their email: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr3bWDBWnPE
 
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News Comments > Morning Consolidation
4. Re: Morning Consolidation May 12, 2015, 14:06 Ecthelion
 
MindStalker3 wrote on May 12, 2015, 10:22:
Tipsy McStagger wrote on May 11, 2015, 13:50:
It actually irritates me how bargain basement the consoles are.
....
But then it comes down to developers designing for it which they won't.. they'll design for the lowest performance with some sliders on the higher performance system. Pretty much it's always a loss for the consumer.


Its called lowest common denominator. But in reality it really makes sense. If you want to make a top of the line game with top of the line graphics for top of the line systems. That is great! But if you want to make a game that will run on the most systems possible so more people can buy it, you will spec towards the XBox 360, maybe the Xbox One. Why, because there are over 30 million XBox 360 in active use and almost 10 million XBox Ones in active use.
I always thought the relatively low horsepower of consoles was done for 2 main reasons, 1 to keep the cost down and 2 to keep the power usage and heat build-up down.

The specs being relatively low does not have any real relation to staying in line with the past generation that I can see. How many games now have we seen that had the PS3/360 version canceled (or never begun) to make a more hardware-intensive game? Batman Arkham Knight comes to mind. Yes, there is a much larger user base on last-gen consoles, but consider this. If you are a developer making a game targeted at a release this year, you can make a current-gen only game (like Arkham Knight), which is fine if you don't need those last-gen sales numbers. But if you want the biggest user base you have to release on both generations, which requires extensive porting. We have heard how different the PS3 and PS4 are from each other, and the 360 and One are closer but still different enough that the One is not backwards compatible. Most of the time developers are already making a PC version that requires porting with higher resolution and better graphics (if you want PC sales that is), so at that point it doesn't really matter if the Xbox One and PS4 are monster machines or not. Developers could easily scale either way, because they're already doing it for PC (sometimes in a half-assed way, but they're still doing it).
 
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