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7. Re: Sanctum OS X Plans Jul 29, 2012, 02:57 Kitkoan
 
DrEvil wrote on Jul 29, 2012, 01:52:
I'd like to see what claims you have to backup "OSX is bloated"; I also fail to see how the "bloat" of an OS in the "traditional sense" would even matter here. As far as "Apple's lackluster hardware", which hardware are you talking about? Certainly not the new MacBook Pro Retina with a GeForce GT650M. Their hardware, in general, is certainly no worse than the mainstream PC market in terms of performance or ability.

As I said, look up other games that are both coded for Windows and OSX. You'll notice that the OSX version needs a more powerful GPU due to OSX's excesses usage of OpenCL for all the "pretty" effects. And your comparing a $3000 laptop to what kind of "mainstream PC market"? Most people aren't paying $3K, so please use a more serious example.

I'm uncertain why you believe the OS' use of OpenCL/OpenGL is the primary cause of issues here.

Most of the performance issues in OS X can be traced back to the kernel or to Apple's current OpenGL stack. But these are things that continue to get better, and I might add are not preventing the commercial success of games on the platform.

The performance of the system is good enough, although I wish it was better in some areas.

So hold on, first you tell me you don't know why I think OpenGL could be a primary cause here, then you go on to tell me you know that OpenGL has problems which would be a primary cause since it is the API used from graphical games. If it's having issues doing the main part of the program/game then I would say that is one of the primary causes. And back to OpenCL doing too many OSX extras like the animation, etc...

Nowhere did any of us suggest that Apple makes "a good gaming rig"; I agree that they don't. What I am willing to claim though is that their hardware is just as suitable as most mainstream PCs for gaming, and their laptops are certainly just as qualified as the majority of the ones on the market. (Exceptions being "portable workstations" like the ones Alienware/Dell sells.)

Define "their hardware" and now you want to compare I'm guessing that $3000 laptop but don't want to compare it to a $2000-$3000 PC laptop?

Until Apple actually makes it clear that their intent is to lock their platform down, it's silly to assign to classify their actions here as malignant. Microsoft is making the same moves with Windows 8. Believe it or not, the same moves have also been considered (as far as signed application execution) in the UNIX market space for the last few years now as well with the advent of TPM and "trusted boot" technologies.

Turning it on by default pretty much did show they are slowly moving towards closing OSX. Depending on the backlash will show if they finally do, but my money is that they will. But it's not set in stone nor did I claim it was.

Me: Gatekeeper is now on by default and most basic users won't turn it off because you have to go to the Security settings and turn things off (people will think warning signs about turning any system settings off, more so with a security setting clearly labelled Security).

But by default, there's a documented shortcut key for allowing you to open the app regardless of the security setting. Which I believe can be reached through the '?' read more link on the Gatekeeper popup. I applaud Apple's move here as too many people will just run any random thing they download and instantly click through dialogs. It's almost a given that if you require people to actually read something, they won't, and so most individuals won't bypass gatekeeper.

Because everyone reads every system warning and doesn't just click the box to remove the warning/note. Might I introduce you to the average user? Tip, they don't read things like that. Which means that for basic users it kinda will and they are using this as a judge to move to the next step of locking it down.

Me: n the next version or two it could be possible to no be able to disable Gatekeeper and it being marketed off as a selling point "No need to worry about malware as OSX has been now designed to prevent viruses from being able to do anything." This has been touted already as a security for it's users on iOS and a selling point for many.

And it would be irresponsible, wild speculation to believe they'll go further than that. Until Apple says otherwise, I have no reason (as a developer and user) to believe that they will.

The day they do is the day I'm no longer interested in the platform, but until they do, or give indications that they will, I'm not going to waste time worrying about hypotheticals.

At this point, I'd be more inclined to believe Microsoft would do that than Apple.

See about about closing OSX... and they are already withholding functions like iCloud and I think its the Notifications from developers unless they use the App store with further implies they are slowing locking it down. And since they already withholding new functions, they are most likely to keep doing it.


Yes, I agree the sandbox model needs more permissive models for certain classes of applications. But on the other hand, Apple's trying to do something no one in the desktop industry has done before, so I think it's going to be a learning process for everyone involved. Apple has already expanded the capabilities of the sandbox model from what they provided originally based on developer feedback.

Based on developer feedback? Thats why they are having such a backlash? Over things that developer feedback agreed with?

Me: And what API's are good for making games on OSX? From what I've heard, OpenGL support is pretty bad on OSX and DirectX doesn't work at all. The two main API's used for games don't have much support that I'm aware of. This really hinders development on OSX as you'll need to use Cocoa I think?

First of all, as of OS X 10.7, the OpenGL support is very good. Apple has a very solid implementation of OpenGL 3.2. Yes, I wish they supported greater than 3.2, but they have a holistic approach to what they support on the platform that tends to reflect their minimum supported hardware profile. My guess is that the next release of OS X will provide support for a newer version of OpenGL as OS X Mountain Lion was the first version to officially drop support for all pre-OpenGL 3.3 hardware.

You are aware OpenGL is version 4.1, and many Apple machines physically can support it but Apple isn't bothing to? This is hurting them, old outdated support, and 4.1 was released in Augest last year, so almost a year later they still are showing no interest. They are only just supporting 3.2 with the newer version of OSX, which is from Augest 2009. Explain how this is really good support of OpenGL?

As for them not supporting DirectX; WTF? That's a microsoft-only API that's patented, copyrighted, etc. No large corporate entity is going to provide support for that. Most of the mobile and console device space (excluding the Xbox) is OpenGL ES (iPhone, Android, Blackberry, etc.), or OpenGL-based (PS3).

This is why I mentioned OpenGL, since pretty much every game runs a on either DirectX (Windows only) or OpenGL, and as both you and I have shown, Apple isn't really supporting it since they are only just using a 3 year old version of it thats horribly out of date.

Me:
And if so, you're just adding more cost to an already small gaming market. Things like these make gaming on OSX less then a great move and why I think Valve has all but stopped development of Steam on OSX.

"all but stopped development of Steam on OSX"? Seriously? On what basis do you make that claim. They make updates to the steam client frequently on OS X. In fact, when I logged into it tonight there was an update.

You might want to tell that to the many, many complaints of basic issues on the Steam Mac forums then because they are stating otherwise. And I just looked again right now and seeing more basic complaints of basic Steam functions.

Me: As for the Humble Indie Bundles, OSX users tend to buy a few more copies but not enough to compensate the average price between it and Linux so it doesn't not have a greater revenue collected.

Uh, wrong. If you actually go look at the last humble bundle graph for total revenues, you'd see that the Mac users contributed more revenue in *total* than Linux users. Almost double. While the Windows users of course contribute several times the Mac+Linux users combined.

Go back, look at it again. I did, thats how I know. I didn't write that until I checked to see.
Humble Bundle 2 was a tie. Frozen Byte Bundle Linux out did OSX by about a decent amount. Humble Bundle 3, Linux just out did OSX. Frozen Synapse was a tie. Voxitron OSX just out did Linux by a little. Introversion Bundle Linux out did OSX by a little. Humble Bundle 4 OSX sold a bit more the Linux. Android Bundle Linux did more then double OSX. Mojam OSX just out sold Linux. Android 2 again Linux more then double. Botanicula OSX did about double Linux. Humble Bundle 5 OSX out sold Linux by about 2/3. Not touching the Music Bundle since it is game free. And Linux always pays more. This means Linux out does OSX on average. I own all the Bundles but the first one so I can check.


PS, I was too tired to bother with better quote tag but it is still understandable
 
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*automatically refuses to place horse heads in anyone's bed*
 
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