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52. Re: Grab bag of thoughts Dec 14, 2006, 06:14 Jerykk
Imagine how much harder it will be to keep track of everything thats going on when you have three enemies, a squad (10) worth of enemies, a whole platoon (35ish) worth of enemies. Your theoretical example only has a hope of working if the combat is kept at a very small scale level; if you expand it you introduce too many moving parts for a player to keep track of during real time.

I don't think I've ever seen an RPG that forces you to fight 10 or more enemies at the same time. When you have that many enemies, your tactical options become greatly reduced, regardless of real-time or turn-based combat. In my hypothetical game, you could do the following:

1) Assume the sniper role and plop her at a good vantage point overlooking the enemy position (given the large number of enemies, I'm assuming that it's an enemy base). Set to Defense mode so that she doesn't fire until told to.

2) Assume the explosives guy role and place lots of remote mines in chokepoints around the perimeter of the base (gates, entrances, etc).

3) Assume the melee guy role, run into the base, punch a few enemies and get them to chase you. Lead them through the mined areas.

4) When the enemies are over the mines, detonate them. Switch the sniper to Offensive mode so she starts firing away at survivors. In order to get to her, they'll have to pass through one of the mined areas and get blown up.

Actually, now that I think about it, this sounds a lot like Commandos. Now that was a good, real-time tactical strategy game. It's too bad they dumbed it down for the third and fourth iterations.

Well, when you openly say you're going to steal a game in a much beloved series, then you will receive the title of "Fucktard" from those here.

When did I ever state I was going to download Fallout 3? I said that if the game is completely turn-based, I won't even download it, implying that the game wouldn't even be worth pirating, letalone buying.

Don't you think there's room in this world for intellectual, strategic and tactical games? Or should every single game just be you firing a gun through the eyes of Duke Nukem?

Actually, my hypothetical example was that of a party-based action RPG which would involve real-time combat, actual player skill and tactical depth. Obviously, certain elements of gameplay are better suited to turn-based gameplay. Combat is just not one of them.

Think about those "immersive" shooters like Half-Life 2, Call of Duty. Remember anything specific? I'm sure you do.

You assume incorrectly. HL2 and CoD are forgettable because of their highly scripted nature. The most memorable moments I remember are those that emerged from good AI. I remember in Gothic, the first time I tried to sneak into somebody's house (or rather, hut), they ran up and yelled at me to get out. I remember when I climbed up onto a ledge and an Orc actually jumped and climbed up after me. These are basic things now (except for platforming AI, which I haven't seen since) but back then, they really impressed me and made the experience all the more immersive.

Your argument is that turn-based games are necessary because AI is too retarded. My argument is that developers should actually strive to improve AI so that turn-based gameplay is unnecessary.

Immersion in games is limited to A) graphics B) audio C) scripted sequences.

I disagree. As mentioned earlier, I was highly immersed in the Gothic world and certainly not because of graphics and audio. I was immersed by how NPCs and enemies would actually react to what I was doing. Whether it be the pack mentality of the little goblins, the stalking of the Snappers or just the general behavior of the NPCs, AI is what made the game. Now, you say that "AI" in games is basically just elaborate scripting. Duh. How else can programmers create AI? Everything is a set of conditionals. Something happens, the AI reacts to it. Not sure how else you can implement AI.

And yes, I am relatively young. 22, to be specific. Did I grow up on Halo? Not exactly, I grew up on Commander Keen, Secret Agent, Crystal Caves and all those lovely EGA and CGA games on my 286. The difference between you and I is that I seek to maximize the gaming potential of the computer medium, whereas you seek to merely recreate traditional experiences of older mediums. I think this was firmly established when you excused (ironically) the horrible AI of NWN2 simply because it was D&D, as if that lets the game ignore the established standards of modern games.

This comment was edited on Dec 14, 06:35.
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