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61. Re: Morning Metaverse Mar 14, 2013, 07:32 yuastnav
SimplyMonk wrote on Mar 13, 2013, 20:03:
NewMaxx wrote on Mar 13, 2013, 14:57:
You'll be disappointed. What most people don't realize is that science is just another religion.

Science isn't a religion. It might appear to be at times, but only because we, as humans, are so bad at living up to its ideals. The same could be said for religion itself in that most of them have inherently beneficial aspects to them, but they are abused and distorted from their ideals.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that humanity sucks and is the reason we can't have nice things.

The way that science works and has worked for the last hundreds of years is in some ways similar to religion.
Popper basically said that scientists are rational beings who, when confronted with a new, superior theory, will abandon the old one. To that Kuhn answered that it is not true and that older scientists will still cling to older theories while younger scientists will be more interested in newer theories and the newer theories will then prevail because the older theories will die out with the older scientists.
A good example for that is quantum mechanics.
Many of the physicists who played a more or less great part in quantum mechanics like Planck, Schrödinger and Einstein were opposed to the idea of quantum mechanics because it made them uneasy.
There were rational reasons for and against quantum mechanics but in the end it all boiled down to faith, to a believe. Some wanted to believe in quantum mechanics and therefore continued working on it, others didn't. A paradigm shift occurs and the older theories are (at least partly) replaced by the newer ones.

And it's not bad that it works that way, because Popper claimed that the older theories are completely removed and not used anymore, which is not true. They were true for a period of time until people encountered problems that were not solvable and incompatible with these theories, so they made new theories while some people still tried to salvage the older theory by trying to make it compatible with these incompatible problems, which can work to an extent but more often than not doesn't.

There is no perfect ideal of how science should be. Science works the way we do it.

InBlack wrote on Mar 14, 2013, 04:53:
I love it how Beamer actually tried to convince some of us that our lack of a belief system is somehow a belief system itself.

Nice try dude, but the ounis of proof is on you. You want to have a God? Fine you can have one, or ten for all I care. As far as Im concerned they DONT exist, since there is no evidence of their existence if you could provide me with some I would be glad to change my mind.

I think there are only very few things that one can *know*, i.e. it is possible to doubt almost everything, so I don't think that one can say that one *knows* that there does not exist a metaphysical being that exists in a state indescribable by something out of this universe (which is the reason why the word "state" would also be misplaced here) which has, by definition, the ability to create energy from nothing.
In that sense atheism, too, would be a belief system. And being able to prove one thing or the other would be, from a human standpoint, meaningless because if you aren't dealing with symbolic logic or mathematics no proof is infallible.
On the other hand atheism is the opposite of theism and by using that word alone atheism is just the absence of any belief system.

Personally I would say that agnosticism is the actual absence of a belief system because atheism would be, by argumentum e contrario, the belief that no deities exist.

This comment was edited on Mar 14, 2013, 07:42.
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