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59. Re: Saturday Legal Briefs Jan 16, 2013, 15:44 Wowbagger_TIP
Verno wrote on Jan 16, 2013, 13:56:
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Jan 16, 2013, 13:35:
You're talking about banning the most common magazines in the world because you want to do something, even though you have no idea what effect it would actually have, if any. That's not rational.

No, I said I didn't understand the purpose of them, I didn't say I supported outright banning them. As in I'm not a gun owner and I don't see why it's so important for recreational or home defense purposes. I was just addressing what you said about how it wouldn't make a difference in that situation. I've already pointed out several times that addressing the root problems will require more than minor changes to gun control, although I do think there are improvements to be made in the area of gun control.
The purpose of them is convenience in most cases. Reloading mags takes a lot longer than changing them, and when you're out shooting, whether for sport, varmint control, or whatever, you don't have to carry so many with you. They are also a standard part of shooting sports that focus on time and accuracy. 20 and 30 round mags are just standard fare for semi-automatic rifles. They are ubiquitous.

If not banning them, then what are you suggesting?

Verno wrote on Jan 16, 2013, 13:56:
Nor is calling people's defense of their rights "gun worship". You don't engage in a productive dialog with that kind of attack on people's character.

I didn't offer any character judgments, those are inferred on your part. In terms of productive dialog, that works both ways. The NRA pledged to defeat any new gun law introduced, there wasn't even room for discussion. Smaller clips is no solution but no discussion about any measure isn't productive either. I am just pointing out that America worships the gun, it's ingrained in popular culture, many families pass it on as a tradition and they are widespread in our media. This isn't even a political left vs right thing either. People keep zeroing in on mental health and gun control but culturally we need to change too in my opinion.

What else am I to infer from your use of the term "gun worship"? Maybe you should explain what you mean by that, if not the common meaning? I don't believe it's gun worship at all for most people. It's a desire for the right to keep and bear arms, as the Constitution states. For hunting, sporting, self and home defense, and as a hedge against the government becoming tyrannical. I know that many dismiss that last one out of hand, but it is a legitimate reason, given even a passing familiarity with history and the rise and fall of governments. Probably won't happen in our lifetimes, or the next couple generations, but it can and does happen.

Verno wrote on Jan 16, 2013, 13:56:
I've offered up some ideas for things that might actually help in previous threads on this subject.

I think many people have shared ideas that might help, the trouble is putting it all together into something that the country can move forward with politically and functionally. Everyone wants the mentally ill to have better care but no one wants to pay taxes for it. Half the country wants as little restriction on personal firearms as possible, the other half wants as many as possible. Everyone wants less weapons coming in through the black market but most attempts are stopgap and temporary. Worse, many American corporations have profited from it.

Ultimately the country needs to decide if its going to care for longer than a mass shooting news cycle and I'm not sure that it truly does. We need to examine what works in other countries and ask ourselves why our approach isn't. I don't just mean mass shootings either, just saving lives and negating injuries in general should be the goal we're shooting for here.
What works in other countries won't necessarily work here. Other countries have different values too. Some don't recognize a legitimate right to self-defense using firearms (or any lethal means in some cases). They have different histories, cultures, population densities, laws (aside from just gun laws), etc., that make them very different from us.

I'm not a nutter that's going to go live in a militia camp or something to hang on to my guns (actually I don't own any guns). I'm not against providing health care, including mental health care, for people. I'm not against paying for it either. Hell, I voted for Obama twice. Even though Obamacare is not all that great, it was still an improvement, and better than anything the Republicans were putting forth.

I want to address the real issues that lead to these kinds of tragedies, but I also think we need to keep some perspective on it. Violent crime has been dropping for a long time now. Most homicides committed with a gun are still related to gang and drug violence. More people are killed by unarmed people than by rifles and shotguns combined. There are things that should be done, but most of the proposals we've seen so far are just political theater. They aren't going to fix anything.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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