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| [Sep 23, 2008, 09:19 am ET] - Share - Viewing Comments |
1Up reports on
Microsoft's hopes that the release of Grand Theft Auto IV for Windows in
November will revitalize (or perhaps vitalize) the
Games
for Windows program, which has not exactly set the world on fire since its
launch two years ago. Word is the release of the PC edition of Rockstar's
open-world action game will offer "a revitalized Games for Windows Live
experience" with the inclusion of a separate Games for Windows client and a game
marketplace. There are no further details on planned enhancements to the GFW
program beyond an ability to sell games directly.
33 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 33. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 24, 2008, 08:57 |
Overon |
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Wow, Verno. I think we just gave Blues one its first mature conversations in years.. Bah I have been doing the same thing since 2002.
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| 32. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 24, 2008, 01:57 |
Ludomancer |
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Wow, Verno. I think we just gave Blues one its first mature conversations in years.. 
Your faith in humanity is refreshing. I think I have my opinion because I don't have that kind of hope for consumers. Either way, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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| 31. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 24, 2008, 00:57 |
CreamyBlood |
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I really liked Vice City and am getting near the end of San Andreas. I'll definitely buy GTA4 as these are brilliant, polished, funny, entertaining and crazy games.
I could comment on some niggling yet minor issues with the controls, but all in all, they've allowed me to configure the keys and mouse as I see fit.
I bought San Andreas on Steam, but to play mods ( a couple of graphics enhancements), I had to downgrade the exe to an older version. Now I don't need to run Steam or be online to play the game.
As long as I don't get this new bizarre DRM EA's been using lately, I'll buy it. Otherwise I'll wait a year for it to get patched out and drop in price, I'm in no rush.
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| 30. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 22:57 |
Verno |
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Steam, for no better reason at this time than DRM, forces you to connect to the network even for single player games. They also collect and share customer data and PC data (through the steam connection, hardware, stats, nothing serious, etc) with many third parties. No they don't. The Valve hardware survey is entirely optional and is done twice a year. You can just click "No". This has been covered exhaustively in the past for exactly your concerns about it. Secondly, I don't think force is the right word. No one forces you to purchase a singleplayer title on Steam, you choose to do so. You accept the various terms and conditions of it's operation when you purchase it. It's no different than technically not being able to do just about anything the publisher doesn't like with your retail discs. Go read your EULA sometime, you didn't exactly have a list of rights to do anything in the first place.
However looking back at the last 30 years of industry, corporate behavior, and the slow evolution of technology-familiar companies in regards to the user-side of things, this is where the red flag goes up.
Assume that nothing is wrong at all with the behavior of the above mentioned software. The more we adopt this, the more this becomes the status quo, where do you think it will end up in 10 years, or 20, or 50? The world could end in 10 years. I mean, you're just speculating based on your personal concerns and theres nothing wrong with that but it has little basis in reality. It's all just possibilities. I think you give customers too little credit. Look at the recent outpouring of consumers speaking up on DRM in the music industry and how it's changed it. DRM free services are popping up all over the place now, even from big companies like Amazon.
The gaming industry is still in it's infancy comparatively and many of these issues aren't in the mainstream press to begin with. When these companies truly start to cross over that line between service and self-interest and customers take issue then you'll see it change. In the end you're forgetting the customer has all the power in the world - money.
If enough people don't care about it in 10, 20, 30 years or whatever then maybe it wasn't that major of an issue to begin with. We have no realistic scope or context to use to determine either way.
I respect your opinion but I think you're giving yourself and your fellow consumers too little credit in terms of your power over corporations.
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| 29. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 20:41 |
Ludomancer |
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Now, I said it was "practically" a root kit. If we're speaking literally now...
Stay with me through this -
Steam, for no better reason at this time than DRM, forces you to connect to the network even for single player games. They also collect and share customer data and PC data (through the steam connection, hardware, stats, nothing serious, etc) with many third parties.
Windows Live is the same, with the (current) exception of forced connectivity.
And I'm going to toss in the Warden app from Blizzard for good measure, because of all corporate network-enabled DRM that one does a great deal more than the others.
So, with the exception of collecting user data, no they don't install system drivers, have remote admin rights, or anything that a typical rootkit does.
However looking back at the last 30 years of industry, corporate behavior, and the slow evolution of technology-familiar companies in regards to the user-side of things, this is where the red flag goes up.
Assume that nothing is wrong at all with the behavior of the above mentioned software. The more we adopt this, the more this becomes the status quo, where do you think it will end up in 10 years, or 20, or 50?
THAT, is the issue. Once you have a market that is totally accepting of the presence of a separate parties software monitoring their personal data, how much further will those separate parties push their liberties with their users?
I am not seeing a x-files smoking-man in Microsoft, I am just the guy who can see past the end of his nose and is yelling out my concerns on the forum soap-box when I get the chance. When your kids, or grand kids, or great grand kids are in college and start bitching to you about how they need a retina scan every time they start up Half Life 10, and how the majority of their peers blow them off because "What's the big deal, every body does it. I have to give a retina scan every day to confirm my identity for the school bus"... well. That may be far fetched for 10 years, or 20... but 50? 100? Does it matter anymore because you won't be alive and now it's someone elses problem?
So yeah... rant, rant, rant.
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| 28. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 20:38 |
LMN8R |
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The problem is that Valve is simply too small a company to manage such elaborate relationships at this time. They have 150 people total spread between TF2 updates, Left 4 Dead, Episode Three, and whatever other games they might be working on, and also on Steam and support.
You look at a company like Ubisoft, they'll easily have 100-200 people working on a single game.
You look at a company like Harmonix, they have 280 people total spread between Rock Band, DLC, and...not much else.
At this point in time, Valve might have the Steam manpower to get developer relationships working alright for distribution, but I can't imagine they have the necessary support for Steamworks in place. On the other hand, Microsoft has been working with practically every publisher out there getting them used to XBox Live APIs for multiplayer, achievements, and more for years upon years, and I'm sure much of the same established, robust codebase transfers directly over to Games for Windows Live.
GFW Live already appears to be a much better solution for developers, so as long as the user experience for GFW Live improves from what it was in Gears of War - which it should majorly do this Fall with the release of the standalone client - I don't see any problem at all with buying games that use it. Hell, I look forward to it.
This message was edited at Sep 23, 20:41. |
| 27. |
No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 20:24 |
Verno |
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I'd rather the games be on Steamworks, but the fact that there aren't any significant, full-priced PC releases using Steamworks yet, while a bunch of GFW Live titles announced, says that something on Valve's end just isn't there yet. I remember hearing about the problems and lack of communication trying to get Aquaria on Steam. Valve really needs to create a formal approval process or at least give some loose standards for getting titles onto the service. I'm happy that they want to keep shovelware out but you can't just ignore emails from people and so on. It should be a bit more detailed than "Whatever Gabe thinks is cool". Aquaria should've been on Steam ages ago and I feel bad for the dev, he probably missed out on a lot of money due to it.
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| 26. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 20:01 |
LMN8R |
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Bullshit. Create an offline profile, you can play offline just fine.
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26045695
As for the outages, they suck, but Steam isn't immune to that either.
If you're using a keyboard, then you click on things and the buttons are irrelevant. What's wrong with having the buttons there for those who do happen to use a controller? The important thing is that in-game, while you're actually playing, Gears of War changes the interface depending on what interface you're using. If you're playing with KB+M, you don't see 360 prompts in-game.
-Is unnecessary as it doesn't actually provide any useful features. LIVE provides: in-game chat (as does Steam), friends list (as does Steam), achievements (as does Steam). LIVE does not provide: automatic game updates (as does Steam), a place to buy games (as does Steam), a place to store and redownload my games from anywhere (as does Steam), etc. GFW Live doesn't offer that now, but it will soon. As in, this Fall, by the time GTA 4 - the game that this thread is about - is released. From the developer's side, Relic has explained in detail why they went with GFW Live instead of Steam: It's simply a more mature API for 3rd-party developers, with a better network in their opinion. I'd rather the games be on Steamworks, but the fact that there aren't any significant, full-priced PC releases using Steamworks yet, while a bunch of GFW Live titles announced, says that something on Valve's end just isn't there yet.
Comments by guys like Jonathon Blow who created Braid, or the guys who created Aquaria, confirm that Valve's 3rd-party relations are slow, just not up to snuff yet. Great for distribution, not so much for Steamworks.
So, as long as it's going to prevent me from saving my progress, not allow me to play if it can't log in (as it has no offline mode, like in Steam) and otherwise just get in the way and be useless, I don't see why anyone would want it. Sounds fantastic to me. Again luckily, that's just plain wrong. Gears of War PC fully supports offline play without connecting to the network.
This message was edited at Sep 23, 20:02. |
| 25. |
No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 18:39 |
Verno |
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I don't know, Rockstar's has improved each PC version of their games significantly. They learned their lesson from the lackluster GTA3 port. I'll definitely pick up GTA4, especially since multiplayer won't be an addon anymore. GTA mods are hilarious and fun as hell, it's a shame the previous games had to resort to kludgy user mods and unreleased patches just to get multiplayer working to enjoy mods with other people. Hopefully GTA4 changes that trend!
This message was edited at Sep 23, 18:40. |
| 24. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 18:30 |
Asmodai |
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What is even more retarded (and I can't believe anyone has picked up on it yet) is the fact that MS believes GTA4 will revitalise anything based on passed performance of the 'long past console release' performance of the previous GTA games which were all "disappointing" (the finger was vaguely pointed at pirates of course).
Many PC players already have a console and have played GTA4. Some won't buy it on principle (don't want to be fed regurgitated content). A lot will pirate for w/e reason.
Hardly the "revitalisation" they envisaged...
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| 23. |
No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 15:59 |
Verno |
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Well it's a massive company. It's not hard to believe the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Personally I think they're shooting themselves in the foot by focusing on the Xbox series so much. Microsoft's biggest problem is that that they try to compete in everything just for the sake of it. There have been good 360 games for sure and I'm happy to make Sony compete for a change but the Microsoft core business model doesn't make money in the living room, it makes it at work. The 360 makes a pitiful amount of money(and even then, only in what, 3 quarters so far?) compared to their software business.
We really don't know what the hell they're doing but if it's any consolation(pun not intended) to anyone else, I doubt even Microsoft knows what the hell it's doing. Too much middle management, too many employees and trying to focus on everything at the same time make for a clumsy corporation.
People around here seem to be thinking of the Smoking Man from the X-Files with regards to Microsoft when in reality they should be thinking of a retarded elephant.
This message was edited at Sep 23, 16:07. |
| 22. |
No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 15:38 |
Dr. D. Schreber |
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I don't know what Microsoft even thinks they're doing with one talking head saying they want GfWL to mean something (lol) while another admitted not long ago that they deliberately sabotage PC gaming by teasing shit like Halo and making it a console exclusive to get people to buy the console in countries where it hasn't caught on nearly as much as the United States. |
| 21. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 14:29 |
Verno |
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No offense Verno, but yeah, Steam practically is. People just look the other way because, "HEY LOOK GAMES! SHINY!" Well no offense man but I don't think you understand what a rootkit or spyware actually are then. Steam doesn't install system drivers nor does it interfere with system operations or other programs. It's just a program you load up by choice, that's it. You act like a company choosing Steam or GfWL means that they're doing something nefarious. People choose these services, no one forces them to do anything and the publishers haven't given people reason to think otherwise. If you have some proof of this, post it.
Uhh...Steam? Friends list. Private chat. Chat rooms. Voice chat. Server browser. Favorites. Notification of friend joining a server or starting a new game.
The game is already on Steam too, so it seems like the obvious choice to me. Hey man, I'd love to see everything on Steam but some companies are just resistant and Valve is pretty picky about what they let on Steam. Ask the devs why they didn't go with Steamcloud or whatever its called, it was probably a time thing. Valve just put that stuff out there this year and DoWII has probably been in development for 2+ years. Personally I'd rather see the game on GfWL as opposed to Relic Online if they can't use Steam right now due to time concerns.
This message was edited at Sep 23, 14:30. |
| 20. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 14:15 |
Ludomancer |
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No offense Verno, but yeah, Steam practically is. People just look the other way because, "HEY LOOK GAMES! SHINY!"
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| 19. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 14:02 |
[THA] Hamst3r |
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Hahaha what? You'd prefer they use the godawful Relic Online interface from Company of Heroes? That's the alternative my friend. Uhh...Steam? Friends list. Private chat. Chat rooms. Voice chat. Server browser. Favorites. Notification of friend joining a server or starting a new game.
The game is already on Steam too, so it seems like the obvious choice to me.  |
| 17. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 13:48 |
Verno |
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At what point will are we going to stop overlooking the fact that it's all spyware? Yeah geez that's not a stretch of the imagination or anything. By your definition of spyware Steam is a rootkit.
I'm still pissed that Dawn of War II is GFW live ...yuck! Hahaha what? You'd prefer they use the godawful Relic Online interface from Company of Heroes? That's the alternative my friend. Trust me, you will be thankful they are using GfWL. I swear its like some of you hate it without even seeing it just based on what others on here say.
Judge for your own eyes when the new GfWL interface is out.
This message was edited at Sep 23, 13:52. |
| 16. |
No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 13:40 |
Paketep |
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More like "GFW Live to kill GTA4's sales"
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| 15. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 13:38 |
Ludomancer |
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As long as it's stable, and doesn't interfere with anything I'm doing, I don't see what the problem is. Sounds good to me! At what point will are we going to stop overlooking the fact that it's all spyware?
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| 14. |
Re: No subject |
Sep 23, 2008, 13:21 |
[THA] Hamst3r |
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Games for Windows Live is:
-Completely free
-A good way to talk with my 360 friends
-Compatible with Steam, allowing games to still be put on there, and allowing me to talk with friends using the overlay
-Giving me achievement points, which I like cause I'm a whore
-Going to have a stand-alone application, instead of needing to be in-game like Gears of War. Games for Windows Live:
- Was down for 2 weeks after I installed Gears of War, preventing me from being able to save my progress. Steam doesn't require me to log in to save my progress. (story: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6184323.html?sid=6184323&part=rss&subj=6184323 )
- Has XBOX 360 controller buttons on it's in-game interface rather than keyboard keys, which is stupid. (visual aid: http://www.tech2.com/media/images/2007/Aug/img_19361_gfwl1.jpg )
- Is unnecessary as it doesn't actually provide any useful features. LIVE provides: in-game chat (as does Steam), friends list (as does Steam), achievements (as does Steam). LIVE does not provide: automatic game updates (as does Steam), a place to buy games (as does Steam), a place to store and redownload my games from anywhere (as does Steam), etc.
So, as long as it's going to prevent me from saving my progress, not allow me to play if it can't log in (as it has no offline mode, like in Steam) and otherwise just get in the way and be useless, I don't see why anyone would want it. Sounds fantastic to me.
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33 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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