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| [Aug 12, 2008, 01:48 am ET] - Share - Viewing Comments |
26 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 26. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 13, 2008, 15:41 |
Tumbler |
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Egads! Even the people who really want to pay are really only left with 2 legitimate choices: Don't eat the cookie, or just do like everyone else and just help yourself to one and move on, knowing that no one is watching nor cares that you did it. Given that you are such a good chef, and the cookies smell so wonderful, doing without the great-smelling cookie when it would be so easy to obtain one is not a choice most people end up making. Uh, your cookie example is offly friendly to the developers in all this. If they all sold cookies it would take the shape of some vending machine with nice pictures of cookies but after paying it would be anyones guess what would come out of the machine.
Hmm, the picture showd a full size cookie but I got a mini bite size one, what gives? FUCK YOU PIRATE! You already experienced the cookie, you can't have your money back!
You cookie tasted like shit, I'm pretty sure you used shit instead of chocolate in your cookie. Fuck you loser, you paid for the cookie and you can't have your money back.
You add said home made cookies and I got something that looks like an animal cracker...i'd like my money back. Fuck you bastard! You're going to make us go out of business!
DRM is part of all this but it's the icing on the cake in my opinion. The content of what we buy on store shelves are rarely what we're expecting and this bait and switch tactic that is the bread and butter of many companies is literally pushing more people away from purchasing software legitimately because they feel swindled.
If game developers are so convinced DRM is going to be the way to keep their software safe then build it in from teh ground up. make sure it doesn't ruin the experience of the game because when so many people go out of their way to crack their legally purchased software you ought to pay some attention to that fact.
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Ironclad FANBOI! & Stardock too! |
| 25. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 20:39 |
Prez |
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It shouldn't be too hard to understand why this is such a sore subject for Cliffski, or any PC Game developer for that matter. The ease (and frequency) with which pirates help themselves to games that took a lot of hard work has to be maddening. I'm sure everyone, even unapologetic pirates, would acknowledge this. To know that anybody with a net connection can nonchalantly take for free what you stake your very livelihood on surely can put one on edge.
Having said that, I honestly don't think you are looking at this objectively, Cliffski. Again, I understand why this sort of thing gets your dander up, but you need to try to look at this from the point of the average gamer. Not the hardcore, not the niche freak, not the pirate, but the average gamer.
Lets say you bake some cookies. You put a table out in the middle of a busy park and load it up with them. You put a sign up explaining that you want 50 cents a cookie with instructions on how to pay, then you leave. Now, anyone who wants a cookie of course can just come by and take one - you're not there, and since this is a busy park in, let's say, New York, everyone minds their business about it and does nothing to discourage those who take without paying.
Ahh, but for those who DO want to pay, you leave the following instructions: "In order to properly take ownership of said cookie, you must obtain 50 pennies from 1973, (Not any other year), put them all face up in a penny wrapper by hand, seal both ends of the wrapper with African beeswax, heat the roll to exactly 117 degreesF, and deliver the money to my house on foot. I will take your name, phone number, address, age, list of relatives living and dead, place of employment, and also a picture of you for my archives. Thanks for your business!!!"
Egads! Even the people who really want to pay are really only left with 2 legitimate choices: Don't eat the cookie, or just do like everyone else and just help yourself to one and move on, knowing that no one is watching nor cares that you did it. Given that you are such a good chef, and the cookies smell so wonderful, doing without the great-smelling cookie when it would be so easy to obtain one is not a choice most people end up making.
Sounds a little ridiculous, I know. But is it that far removed from PC gaming nowadays? Like it or not, piracy is so stinking easy for anyone who knows how to click a mouse that you are basically selling games on the honor system. The nonsensical payment process in my little story is analogous to the DRM hoops the average consumer is force to jump through to play a game that they legally bought. It is FAR easier to steal them when you make it this damn annoying to eat a cookie, or play a game.
My ship pulled into Japan one year while I was in the Navy, and something happened there that shocked me. The mass transit system, (or at least the monorail system) was completely on the honor system. It was a simple setup; a small machine took your money when you reached your destination. That's it. Above this machine was a pricelist; the further you traveled, the more you were supposed to pay.(Not that I could read it...) But no one was verifying that you paid the correct price, or at all. I found this to be astonishing - who in their right mind would pay when they could ride for free with no consequences? And that was the shocking part. I watched, stunned, as 8 out of 10 people paid SOMETHING. I can't say that they all paid what they should have, but they paid! I was so fascinated that I stayed on the rail for 2 more complete circuits (it made a big loop around the city), watching people pay to ride the rail.
The moral? While there will always be people who will help themselves to something free (which games basically are give how easy it is to obtain them freely), it would seem the average person wouldn't mind paying if 1) The process is simple, 2)The product or service is acceptable, and 3)The price is reasonable.
I don't claim that I know for sure how many people who pirate would pay at least something for games if the whole process was as easy as it should be (no DRM, no invasive programs, no compatibility issues because of Copy Protection), but it is at least something worth considering, no?
EDIT: I think it should be stated that I am speaking to PC gaming in general, not Clifski's games in particular. I'm not sure I ever played any of your games specifically.
This message was edited at Aug 12, 21:04. |
| 24. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 19:53 |
Tumbler |
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So you want to post here and tell me why I'm wrong, but if I openly make a call for everyone to email me and tell me why I'm wrong, somehow I'm the bad guy?
What exactly do you want from me? What I read earlier was not you asking for emails.
I saw this on digg yesterday and the link to your site wouldn't work (because of high traffic load I presume) so I'd not read your comments until just now.
Is it 10%? is it 95%? I don’t know. Are they generally kids, or adults? I don’t know. And most vitally of all, WHY do they not buy them, but pirate them. This is what I want to be told. More information and insight is never a bad thing. So in response to this, I don't pirate games. I rent. And for the money I pay to play these games I might as well be a pirate because I get to play (almost) everything I want for $20 a month. (Gamefly) I am happy to pay that fee for all the content I get and it feels like a good value. I also participate in every beta that I can find on my PC. I rarely buy games.
And I would assume that the same reason I choose not to buy is the same reason pirates choose to pirate rather than buy. (The $20 a month fee is free in my mind.)
It's just not worth it. (To buy) Being a paying customer feels like a huge risk in any gaming market right now. Unless your standards are so low that eating shit is a treat, chances are you won't be happy with your game purchase.
The fact that consumers cannot return a game they do not like after a certain time, 7 days, 14 days, 30 days, whatever, has been exploited so much that consumers have chosen to find ways to access this content without risking their money in the process.
If you don't walk down a gaming isle in a store and see it as a mine field for your wallet I don't think you are in touch with what it means to be a gamer right now.
You're literally on your own in 90% of the content coming to store shelves. If you don't like it the developer/publisher is the last person you want to take your complaints to because once you cross that line from being a prospective client to a paying customers, you are of no importance to game developers. (That is the impression I get)
Being a paying customer feels like being part of a group of people that support a business that disrespects them constantly and is not concerned with their wishes.
In conclusion: Why do people pirate instead of buy? (Or why do paying customers choose not to buy?) Because being a paying customer has almost no benefits, no rewards for being part of that group of people that support your company. No interest in seeing us content with our purchase. Just a cold shoulder and broken promises.
There are exceptions to this, that other 10%, some companies do go to the extra effort to keep their promises and give their customers what they are asking for and for now that feels like the bees knees. Companies like Valve, Relic, Stardock, Blizzard give customers what they need to keep them happy and paying. And in many cases I wouldn't say they go out of the way, they just provide a basic level of support for their products and don't seem out to screw the consumer out of cash. And that ethical behavior seems exemplary in the market we're in.
That is sad. Gaming should not be a cesspool of shady business dropping software that doesn't do what consumers expect and running off with the money. But it is.
It's particularly sad when you think about how great gaming was a decade ago. It's no about quality in games today, it's about quantity. How many copies can you sell? that is the only question on most developers minds because they don't see this as an art form, it's a money making scheme.
And it needs to stop.
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Ironclad FANBOI! & Stardock too! |
| 23. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 19:47 |
Prez |
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I think I would technically qualify as a pirate, even though I hate piracy.
I downloaded Crysis to see if it would run on my 8600GT. It did, but barely. So I upgraded to an HD 3870 and then bought it. Strangely, I never installed the legal version. I just finished the version already on my hard drive. You know, the one without any annoying copy protection of any kind? 
I have bought a game in the past after liking the demo only to find out that the gold-master copy would not install on my hard drive. So demo's to me are not good ways of figuring out if the game will run or not. Before anyone asks, yes, there have been games that I dl'd and then decided I would not buy it. Most recently - Halo 2 (Don't ask; it was a weak moment). These games get immediately uninstalled and deleted from my hard drive.
And, let's be honest. 'Free' is always a more attractive price than $xx.99. There will always be piracy for that reason alone.
This message was edited at Aug 12, 19:58. |
| 22. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 19:35 |
Jerykk |
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I'm not asking for game design criticisms, I'm asking specifically about what upsets pirates. You've gotten all the answers you seek from the numerous 100+ post threads about piracy on this site. However, whenever someone provides an answer, you respond by insulting them and telling them that their opinion doesn't matter.
I'll summarize it for you. Here are the reasons why people pirate:
1) Pirated games are free. Free stuff gets taken regardless of whether it is worth taking.
2) Not all games have demos. Oblivion, Far Cry 2, Fallout 3, GTA, Alone in the Dark, etc, have no PC demos.
3) Not all demos are accurate representations of the full game. The Hitman: Blood Money demo, for example, was a training level and didn't represent the rest of the game at all. The Dark Messiah of Might & Magic and Deus Ex 2 demos took different parts of different levels and simply mashed them into one big level with little cohesiveness or flow.
4) People don't like DRM. It is a fact that DRM prevents some legitimate customers from playing the games they bought. Other people simply don't like having to jump through hoops to play their games. DRM can also cause instability. New patches were recently released for Mass Effect and C&C3: Kane's Wrath to fix a Securom issue that was causing Windows Explorer to crash whenever you right-clicked on a file.
5) Reviews are unreliable. Professional reviewers have advertisers and careers to think about. As such, they cater their reviews towards a mainstream audience. Hype also plays a huge part in ratings. Notice how heavily hyped games rarely get below an 8? Finally, there is no opinion more relevant than your own when it comes to entertainment.
6) There are too many risks involved with PC games. There is no guarantee that a PC game will work on your system. Hell, there's no guarantee that a PC game will work on any system because there's no certification for PC games. System requirements are inaccurate 99% of the time. You cannot return opened PC games. The use of activation schemes and CD-keys severely reduces the resale potential of PC games.
There you go. A nice, interesting and well thought-out list of the reasons why people pirate. Hope that helps.
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| 21. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 18:39 |
cliffski |
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"And for Cliffski, this "discussion" of yours does not sway me, as a paying customer who buys games, to support developers more in the future. It actually does exactly the opposite. "
So you want to post here and tell me why I'm wrong, but if I openly make a call for everyone to email me and tell me why I'm wrong, somehow I'm the bad guy?
What exactly do you want from me? |
| 20. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 18:37 |
cliffski |
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I'm doing exactly what you suggest. I'm asking why people pirate my games. People give me feedback on my games on my forums and by email every day. I'm not asking for game design criticisms, I'm asking specifically about what upsets pirates.
I've got hundreds of very interesting and well thought out replies, every one of which I've read.
None of them are from Jeryyk |
| 19. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 17:31 |
Tumbler |
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After going back and reading some of the older threads, you have already decided that you know all about anyone that pirates anything, and are completely unwilling to consider any point of view besides your own. So, I wonder why you bother asking for anyone's reasons or opinions anyway. They've never mattered before. He's asking for your opinion so he can tell you what your opinion should be.
And for Cliffski, this "discussion" of yours does not sway me, as a paying customer who buys games, to support developers more in the future. It actually does exactly the opposite.
You'd be more effective communicating with gamers if you took some time to recall what it means to be one. It's more common to share the views of pirates that it is game developers today. (imo) And that should tell you something about how far out of whack developers priorities are with gamers.
This market is Buyer Beware and it's pretty brutal from a consumer standpoint. You can buy some utter trash on the shelf these days and be stuck with paying for it and it's hard to give developers even an inch after the games we've been duped into buying in the past year.
Companies put major dollars into designing a game and get down right rude to gamers when they don't accept it. Claiming it's because pirates stole it too much, or that the reviews weren't fair, or whatever the excuse of the day is.
When was the last time a developer sent out a message asking for feedback from gamers? What can we do to make this better? What didn't you like about this or that? I don't see any effort made to improve your product, only accusations and complaints that people didn't buy it.
This message was edited at Aug 12, 17:43. |
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Ironclad FANBOI! & Stardock too! |
| 18. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 17:19 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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Oh BTW, is this YOUR site jerk? because if not, I don't really care what you think about whether or not I post here... I realize you probably think it's clever to play on his name like that and all, but I wonder if your realize how ironic it is too? After going back and reading some of the older threads, you have already decided that you know all about anyone that pirates anything, and are completely unwilling to consider any point of view besides your own. So, I wonder why you bother asking for anyone's reasons or opinions anyway. They've never mattered before.
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| 17. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 17:02 |
cliffski |
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Oh BTW, is this YOUR site jerk? because if not, I don't really care what you think about whether or not I post here... |
| 16. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 17:01 |
cliffski |
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the only person I'm ignoring is you. |
| 15. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 16:17 |
Jerykk |
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Its always people like him who are the first to descend into petty and infantile name calling. Surely you jest..? I'm 99.9% sure that you've always been the first one to start calling names in any thread pertaining to piracy.
Jerk wouldn't buy a game if his life depended on it, therefore as a developer, his opinions and ravings are entirely irrelevant. And you know this... how? I really wish I had a digital camera so I could take pictures of all the game boxes and discs I have. Then again, you'd just accuse me of stealing them from the store.
In addition, doesn't your statement completely contradict your invitation for pirates to explain themselves to you?
I don't bother discussing the topic here any more, I'm fed up with inflating the egos of people like jerk and giving them their sport. If by "discuss" you mean "insult people and completely ignore their logical arguments," then it's probably best that you no longer do it here.
This message was edited at Aug 12, 16:24. |
| 14. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 16:01 |
cliffski |
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I'm hostile against people who are hostile against me.
Its always people like him who are the first to descend into petty and infantile name calling.
Jerk wouldn't buy a game if his life depended on it, therefore as a developer, his opinions and ravings are entirely irrelevant.
I don't bother discussing the topic here any more, I'm fed up with inflating the egos of people like jerk and giving them their sport. |
| 13. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 15:00 |
[THA] Hamst3r |
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Then I guess I've never seen any of his games before. 
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| 12. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 14:58 |
Jerykk |
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According to his site, a third-party developer made the End of the World game.
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| 11. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 14:52 |
[THA] Hamst3r |
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I've never heard of cliff harris or his games, who is pirating them? All I can gather is; he's Cliffski here on Bluesnews and he made this: http://www.positech.co.uk/affiliate/endoftheworld/index.html
Which I see in the Steam store all the time, but haven't actually read about yet.
EDIT: Which now that I've actually read a bit about - looks like Katamari Damacy, without the katamari.
This message was edited at Aug 12, 14:53. |
| 10. |
Re: Why, pirates, why?! |
Aug 12, 2008, 14:35 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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I've never heard of cliff harris or his games, who is pirating them? Apparently he's a guy who acts like as asshat on this site, and then tries to sound rational. Dunno who is bothering to download those games.
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| 7. |
case closed |
Aug 12, 2008, 12:24 |
space captain |
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stupid kid: Mr. Pirate, why do you pirate video games?
pirate: Because its free you fucking dumbass. |
26 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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